The Stoicism Thread

It's tempting to believe that to practice, one must "put a lid on emotions", but I don't think that's quite right. In fact, as with bottling anything up, there's a tendency for an explosion, hehe! Better is the idea to be observant to the point that the the pot never gets to a boil, and so never needs a lid at all. Easier said than done, of course.
 
I don’t know. The idea of “managing one’s emotions” is perilously close to ignoring them and fooling oneself in the process. The path I’m on is trying to experience them and seeing what information they have for me, on the premise that each emotion is both valid and temporary. To each their own path and YMMV.

Putting on my psychologist hat for a second... Yes, that's one of the drawbacks of cognitive therapy and I would suppose of a rigidly applied stoicism, too. Emotions have a lot of value (e.g. information, color to life, motivation, reward) and often need to be experienced. Attempts to argue against them, suppress them, or resist them using intellectual means often backfire by making the feeling stronger. There's a boomerang effect.

Cognitive therapists figured this out about 20 years ago or so, and so newer schools of thought (e.g., ACT) have gained prominence, which emphasize the acceptance of feeling rather than resistance to it via intellect. That often seems to produce better results.

However, it depends on the person. Some people really seem to benefit from a heavily intellectual, cognitive approach (these tend to be the more obsessive-compulsive type individuals). Personally I find that way too dry.

I haven't gotten that feeling with stoicism so far, though. I think that was part of why I avoided it until now. I expected it to resemble traditional cognitive therapy, which was old hat to me.

As I mentioned above, though, I'm finding it to be much wider and broader than the term "stoicism" implies. I'd describe it as cultivation of character, virtue, and perspective. At least that's true of Seneca. I can't speak to anything else.
 
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Seneca on the value of retirement:

"Encourage your friend to despise stout-heartedly those who upbraid him because he has sought the shade of retirement and has abdicated his career of honors, and, though he might have attained more, has preferred tranquility to them all. Let him prove daily to these detractors how wisely he has looked out for his own interests...."
 
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2...c-coronavirus-marcus-aurelius-the-meditations

Stoicism in a time of pandemic: how Marcus Aurelius can help:

In the middle of this plague, Marcus wrote a book, known as The Meditations, which records the moral and psychological advice he gave himself at this time. He frequently applies Stoic philosophy to the challenges of coping with pain, illness, anxiety and loss. It’s no stretch of the imagination to view The Meditations as a manual for developing precisely the mental resilience skills required to cope with a pandemic.

First of all, because Stoics believe that our true good resides in our own character and actions, they would frequently remind themselves to distinguish between what’s “up to us” and what isn’t. Modern Stoics tend to call this “the dichotomy of control” and many people find this distinction alone helpful in alleviating stress. What happens to me is never directly under my control, never completely up to me, but my own thoughts and actions are – at least the voluntary ones. The pandemic isn’t really under my control but the way I behave in response to it is.
 
Yes, One does have the ability to choose how they react. That time between stimulus and response can certainly be leveraged.


The adults we're all wringing their hands in the aftermath of a tornado that almost destroyed our house. "How will this affect the kids", they worried. I was 6 or 7 years old, and never had so much fun. You could build a tree fort right on the ground, but in a tree! Plenty of building materials all over the place. And I've found ways in this upset to do interesting stuff I would not have otherwise done. We have no control over much of what is going on, but such a diversity of options in how we choose to react.
 
This is from the happiness poll thread:
That is certainly a rational response I guess. But then I have a few questions:
1) What if those external events outside your control are really affecting your daily life?
2) Isn't happiness very much an emotional response? If so then the irrational is part of that equation i.e. happiness is a function of rational and irrational. I don't have that formula down exactly. :)

EDIT: Now I remember you had a thread on stoicism here: https://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f27/the-stoicism-thread-102138.html
So I'll go read that.
It was surprising to me how "extreme" Stoic principals can seem to be. The idea for things that affect daily life, they'd suggest don't get too attached to them. Appreciate and enjoy them while reminding yourself of the impermanence, and that removal isn't what's the problem, it's one's reaction to the removal.


Nobody has the formula down! Not even the Stoic sages. That's why you "practice" Stoicism. As to happiness, to dismiss an common misunderstanding,the Stoics were not "stoic" in the common definition of the word (without any emotion). They would just identify negative emotions, and where they came from, and do what they could to eliminate them. Positive emotions were fair game, but without attachment; if the thing generating the positive emotion vanished, then your reaction should be indifferent (yeah, not easy!)
 
So, "Suck it up, Buttercup"?
 
As to happiness, to dismiss an common misunderstanding,the Stoics were not "stoic" in the common definition of the word (without any emotion). They would just identify negative emotions, and where they came from, and do what they could to eliminate them. Positive emotions were fair game, but without attachment; if the thing generating the positive emotion vanished, then your reaction should be indifferent (yeah, not easy!)

"If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same"

Mr. Kipling
 
This is from the happiness poll thread:
It was surprising to me how "extreme" Stoic principals can seem to be. The idea for things that affect daily life, they'd suggest don't get too attached to them. Appreciate and enjoy them while reminding yourself of the impermanence, and that removal isn't what's the problem, it's one's reaction to the removal.
This minimal-attachment philosophy is Buddhism in a nutshell! 400BC which predates the first Greek Stoic philosopher by ~100 years.
 
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I see a fair amount of stoicism in Reinhold Niebuhr's "Serenity Prayer" - God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.
 
Stoics do have a severe attitude toward emotion; at least Seneca does. For example, I read this earlier today (in Letters From a Stoic):

"The question has often been raised whether it is better to have moderate emotions or none at all. Philosophers of our school reject the emotions; the Peripatetics keep them in check. I, however do not understand how any half-way disease can be either wholesome or helpful. [....]" He goes on to explain the link between emotions and vice, and how it is better to cut off the emotion at the beginning, when it is weak, rather than indulge it and let it grow.

All in all, the book is very good, and most of the time, I find myself nodding in agreement. The few times I've disagreed have been on the subject of handling emotion.

Otherwise, though, this is one of the best books I've read in a while. His overriding concern, I would say, is character development or "greatness of soul," in his language. He talks a lot about virtue and how to live a good life. There is an idealism to it and also a quality of elitism, if that's the right word -- not the elitism of power, money, fame, etc, but an elitism of character.

Here's a relevant quote, also from something I read earlier today:

"If we had the privilege of looking into a good man's soul, oh what a fair, holy, magnificent, gracious, and shining face should we behold -- radiant on the one side with justice and temperence, on another with bravery and wisdom! And besides these, thriftiness, moderation, endurance, refinement, affability and -- though hard to believe -- love of one's fellow-man, that Good which is so rare in man, all these would be shedding their own glory over that soul. ...If one might might behold such a face, more exalted and more radiant than the mortal eye is wont to behold, would not one pause as if struck dumb by a visitation from above and offer a silent prayer saying, 'May it be lawful to have looked upon it.'"

I've got about half the book underlined. It's really something you have to spend time with, though. I don't think one reading allows it to sink in. It's definitely a lot more nuanced and interesting than the typical sound-bite versions of stoicism make it sound. He addresses all sorts of issues.


On a sidenote, I found interesting the little glimpses he gives you into what Roman life was like back then. The Colosseum, what city life was like (there's a memorable passage in which he describes the city sounds around him), the Senate, slaves, palaces, houses, etc. It's not a Hollywood version; it's an eyewitness report.

One thing that confused me was a seeming contradiction between, on the one hand, his extolling the virtue of courage and bravery and, on the other, his emphasis on not causing offense to people, not stirring enmity. He repeatedly emphasizes courage and bravery as a signal virtue. He gives some very stark illustrations of bravery. For instance, he talks about how Cato was wounded in battle but not mortally so. In order to avoid some ignominy, Cato tore open his own healing wounds with his bare hands, to kill himself.

Yet, he also says be careful not to offend people with your words. That seemed contradictory to me, until I realized that, in our day, when you say something offensive to someone, it's typically on social media, and the only repercussion is an insult and a thumbs down. Back in his time, if you "stirred rancor," you could end up with your throat cut or poisoned.


Anyhow, it's a very good book. I found it on a list of books with the most wisdom per page. It definitely earned its place. There are over a hundred letters, each one on a different topic, and all except a few are worth reading. The exceptions are the abstract discourses on the nature of the Good; that gets a little too hair-splitting and academic for my tastes. I just skipped over those bits.
 
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So, "Suck it up, Buttercup"?
Not really. That implies you were too attached. More like "Shrug if off, I'm not soft". Ok, I just made that up, and it's not great poetry, or great Stoicism, or great wisdom :LOL:
 
Not really. That implies you were too attached. More like "Shrug if off, I'm not soft". Ok, I just made that up, and it's not great poetry, or great Stoicism, or great wisdom :LOL:


If I may add yet another dimension of the Stoic attitude towards misfortune.

It's that maintaining a sustained negative emotional reaction to a situation (e.g. worrying, panicking, catastrophizing) only makes the situation more difficult, and will cloud one's judgment and ability to respond effectively. So it is in one's best interest to accept the situation, and proceed calmly and rationally.

Donald Robertson covers this notion in detail in his book How to Think Like a Roman Emperor. He's the same gentleman conducting the Stoic class previously mentioned in this thread.
 
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So it is in one's best interest to accept the situation, and proceed calmly and rationally.

Or...as a previous poster said, using an economy of words, "Suck it up". :LOL:
 
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Personally I consider myself an Existentialist.

Regarding the "handling of emotions". When younger and early in my career I was prone to blurt out the first thing in my head. I began to recognize that that wasn't the best thing to do in order to get your ideas across. What I learned was that emotional outbursts are accompanied by physical symptoms. Call it energy or blood boiling or whatever. You can feel it. If you can recognize the symptoms you can train yourself to hesitate before action. In my case, just keep my mouth shut, take a breath, think about what I just heard and then respond (or not). It has been enormously helpful throughout my life.

Right now I am living in Bangkok, Thailand. The culture here is famous for being non-confrontational. In reality, they let it out in other ways at other times but it makes for a much more pleasant public sphere.
 
"Suck it up, buttercup."

Izzy Mandelbaum, a modern stoic.


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It's go time.
 
I felt empowered and confident when I stood up to my oldest DB. Family tends to listen to him as though he's a guru. When I exploded (not in anger, but an emotional burst) I was able to articulate my thoughts rationally. Everything bubbled up and came out great. He was more respectful of my opinion for awhile.
I happen to appreciate a good emotional outburst.



 
Yeah, passion helps convince people and drive the point home. Dry rationality often doesn't cut it, especially when you're dealing with thorny interpersonal issues -- although there are times when draining the emotion out can be the right choice, too.
 
I never knew if it was "the right way" or not, but occasionally, when my kids were little, I'd act like I was emotional, even though I wasn't. As you say, a way to convey the gravity of the situation when dry rationality wouldn't have the same effect (especially with little kids, who don't have the attention span to "get" the rationality).
 
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