The Electric Vehicle Thread

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The article was about the accuracy of EPA estimates manufacturers advertise for their vehicles, not what the gauges read. My hybrid gets the EPA estimate, the window sticker also shows both city and highway mpg separately which is the gist of the article. Why don't EV manufacturers publish both highway and city ranges separately, in addition to the combined, since they are different and they do have that information? I would want to know both as an EV buyer.

Wouldn't it be useful for the EV manufacturers to post ranges at extreme temperature conditions since extreme temperatures have much more of an effect on EV range than on ICE EPA fuel usage estimates?
 
Weather conditions? Absolutely! I'll be replacing our Tahoe either this year or next and trying to justify an EV. Most driving will be local and an EV would be great for that. But on our 1300 mile trips to the cabin it would be an issue since in late May temperatures across Texas are typically high 90's to low 100's. Then we make a trip in February where we will see below freezing temps. But the biggest problem is having to park the car in a parking lot for the 2 months without any way to charge. I haven't been able to find any good reviews for that scenario. A few EV owners have said there is a small draw on the battery in below freezing weather. So for now an EV won't work for us. Possibly a plug-in hybrid?
 
Wouldn't it be useful for the EV manufacturers to post ranges at extreme temperature conditions since extreme temperatures have much more of an effect on EV range than on ICE EPA fuel usage estimates?

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it but would it be useful, sure.
 
Thank goodness all ICE vehicles always get the EPA stated MPG, and the range (miles remaining to empty) on the gas gauge is never overstated. The range figure on the gas gauge is/has been overstated more often than not on every ICE or HEV we’ve ever owned from any brand until you’re down to a quarter tank or so.

I don't know how out-of-whack the EV estimates are to real world, but I've found the EPA ratings to most of the cars I've owned to be pretty close to what I'm actually getting. Those that are new enough to have an EPA rating, that is.

However, most people might not know this, but there are actually THREE sets of EPA numbers, for ICE engines. There's the raw laboratory numbers, which is also what was posted on the window sticker, in 1984 and earlier. Then there's the "dumbed down" 1985-2007 numbers, which were an attempt to more realistically portray what people were getting in the real world. By 1985, people were driving faster, a/c was more common in cars, and so on.

Starting in 2008, the numbers were "dumbed down" again. They also revised the EPA ratings on older cars, going back through 1984.

So basically, 2008-current cars have two sets of numbers (raw and dumbed-down).
2007-1985 have THREE sets (raw, dumbed-down, double-dumbed down)
1984 has two sets (raw and double-dumbed down)
1983 and earlier only have one set (raw).

Just to show how those numbers vary, here's the ratings for the old '85 LeSabre my grandmother had, which had a 307-4bbl/4-speed overdrive automatic....
19 city/30 highway/23 combined (Raw)
17/24/19 (window sticker/dumbed down)
15/22/18 (2008+ double-dumbed down)

As for the real world, that 15/22 is probably about what I got out of it, when she gave it to me in 1999 after she couldn't pass the eye test and gave up her license. By that time, it was almost 15 years old, and had around 140,000 miles on it. It also sat around a lot, was used for a lot of ultra-short trips. I delivered pizzas with it on occasion. I also learned that, despite the Olds 307's reputation as being a slow engine, that if you shifted manually, it performed a LOT better. And, once you pegged the 85 mph speedo needle, the car actually seemed to catch its second wind. So, in short, you had to dog that car to get the current estimate.

Meanwhile, back when that car was newer, I remember Granddad had no trouble at all getting close to 30 mpg on a highway trip. The 307 had a lot of low-end torque, so it could just loaf along. Its overall gear ratio was something like 1.82:1 once it went into overdrive, so if you didn't have a heavy foot, it could be quite economical. Now I don't know what kind of "city type" mileage Granddad would have gotten out of it, but it just shows that driving style can make a big difference.

Anyway, I wonder if the EPA's estimate for EVs is similar? Do they just publish whatever raw number they get under laboratory conditions, or do they take that number and adjust it downward, so it might be more reflective of the real world?

As for misleading numbers, while nobody likes to get a car that's more of a guzzler than they were expecting, with EVs, it's a bit more crucial, at least at this point. If my car or truck runs low on fuel quicker than I anticipated, chances are there's going to be a gas station somewhat close, and 5-10 minutes later I'm on my way, with a full tank. With an EV, you have to be more on your toes about that.

Also, with EVs I notice people tend to talk more about range, but with ICE's it's all about MPG. So if you expect 400 miles out of your EV but only get 350, that 50 sounds like a big number. Meanwhile, if I'm expecting my 2012 Ram to get around 17.9 mpg but it really only gets 16.1, that doesn't sound like a HUGE difference. But that also knocks down the range of its 28 gallon tank from 500 miles to 450...again a 50 mile drop.
 
I saw this about the Texas heat wave:

Meanwhile, the need for air conditioning has seen demand for power spike – and so has the price. Electricity prices doubled, and earlier this week got as high as $5,000 per megawatt-hour. Making matters worse, especially near the Gulf Coast, is unusually high humidity. Forecasters predict the temperatures are set to rise higher and last into the week of 4 July, meaning there is no prospect of early relief.

I know you probably wouldn't charge your car during this time, but dang, $5 a kilowatt hour with an average EV getting about 4 miles per kilowatt hour means it would be like paying $25 a gallon for gas.
 
I think I read on TMC that it does not permanently damage the Tesla battery unless you get so low that the polarity reverses. So if you did get to virtually empty you could call a flatbed for a ride to a charger. But that is very unlikely.

I don't drive cross country and my longest round trip uses only 30% of my battery.

We’ve done lots of long distance cross country and generally had no problem having at least 15% on arrival at the next supercharger. And we’ve driven a lot of areas US West which are typically 150 miles between superchargers. I can envision a situation where a highway becomes closed forcing us to retrace, but we pay much attention to construction, road closures etc., to avoid surprises. And we travel with our handy mobile connector with many adapters so we can plug in almost everywhere. Worst case RV parks are plentiful and would tide us over in a pinch.
 
I saw this about the Texas heat wave:

Meanwhile, the need for air conditioning has seen demand for power spike – and so has the price. Electricity prices doubled, and earlier this week got as high as $5,000 per megawatt-hour. Making matters worse, especially near the Gulf Coast, is unusually high humidity. Forecasters predict the temperatures are set to rise higher and last into the week of 4 July, meaning there is no prospect of early relief.

I know you probably wouldn't charge your car during this time, but dang, $5 a kilowatt hour with an average EV getting about 4 miles per kilowatt hour means it would be like paying $25 a gallon for gas.
Well we have fixed price long term contract for electricity so we don’t see those spot prices. ~15 cents per kWh. And we left our car plugged in while we are gone to charge at 5am - for the coolest part of the day. Way less than 1 kWh every day as the car is sleeping unless I talk to it from the app - I don’t even see a drop in the state of charge (it rounds to %).

So, I seriously doubt anyone is paying $5 per kilowatt hour unless they let things float. Who does that? Supercharger pricing doesn’t float either.

And I should mention that our Tesla has been parked outside mostly in shade during this extended extreme heat wave and using almost no energy at all.
 
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I saw this about the Texas heat wave:

Meanwhile, the need for air conditioning has seen demand for power spike – and so has the price. Electricity prices doubled, and earlier this week got as high as $5,000 per megawatt-hour. Making matters worse, especially near the Gulf Coast, is unusually high humidity. Forecasters predict the temperatures are set to rise higher and last into the week of 4 July, meaning there is no prospect of early relief.

I know you probably wouldn't charge your car during this time, but dang, $5 a kilowatt hour with an average EV getting about 4 miles per kilowatt hour means it would be like paying $25 a gallon for gas.

As Audrey pointed out, those price spikes don't fall directly through to Texas consumers. The rates you mention are spot prices the generating companies charge distributors who then bake the cost into the rates they charge consumers. We pay around $0.11 kWh average although our rates vary from a peak of $0.15 kWh between 2 and 6pm to a low of $0.07 kWh between 11pm and 5am. Any guess when I charge our EV? :)
 
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Ah, so I guess the spikes are short enough that the increase even if passed through to consumers is tiny.

At first I was thinking it was like here in Washington state where our governor said the carbon tax on gasoline would not be passed through to consumers but rather the oil companies would just absorb it as a good will gesture. He said it would be pennies a gallon at most.

We now have gasoline 60 pennies higher than our neighboring states and the highest price in the country.

I guess he didn't say how many pennies it would be.
 
So, I seriously doubt anyone is paying $5 per kilowatt hour unless they let things float. Who does that?

I doubt those plans are available any longer after the horror stories of folks who had opted for those plans during the Big Freeze of Feb 21. They saw electric bills that ran into the thousands.
 
In reality, if you have charging at home, it's meaningless 90+% of the time.

And, there’s the rub. About half the population does not have a home that provides a place for a private charging area. That is the big IF that needs to be dealt with.

This is just my observation but everybody I know who has an EV loves the car. Even non Tesla EVs. And, everybody also has a private charging area (garage, carport, etc.) where they can charge their car while living the non EV parts of their lives.
 
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As Audrey pointed out, those price spikes don't fall directly through to Texas consumers. The rates you mention are spot prices the generating companies charge distributors who then bake those charges into the rates they charge consumers. We pay around $0.11 kWh average although our rates vary from a peak of $0.15 kWh between 2 and 6pm to a low of $0.07 kWh between 11pm and 5am. Any guess when I charge our EV? :)

Again, more evidence that ownership of an EV is best left to those with a private parking space where they can charge overnight or other time at their convenience.
 
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Wouldn't it be useful for the EV manufacturers to post ranges at extreme temperature conditions since extreme temperatures have much more of an effect on EV range than on ICE EPA fuel usage estimates?
Honestly, I wouldn’t use that. Why? Because the car itself is capable of calculating those effects in real time and predicts state of charge at stops along the route. The biggest effect on range for me is wind - driving into a strong headwind. The car is even able to detect this after driving for a while. I’ve driven in high heat and IMO that difference is minor at highway speeds. I just pay attention to predicted charge at destination, and if it drops below some level I always have the option to slow down.
 
Well we have fixed price long term contract for electricity so we don’t see those spot prices. ~15 cents per kWh. And we left our car plugged in while we are gone to charge at 5am - for the coolest part of the day. Way less than 1 kWh every day as the car is sleeping unless I talk to it from the app - I don’t even see a drop in the state of charge (it rounds to %).

So, I seriously doubt anyone is paying $5 per kilowatt hour unless they let things float. Who does that? Supercharger pricing doesn’t float either.

And I should mention that our Tesla has been parked outside mostly in shade during this extended extreme heat wave and using almost no energy at all.

So is there a lot of sun?

Or any wind?

At least solar generation would be peaking on those hot summer days.

The other thing is, if there are brown or blackouts because of too much demand, some EVs may be equipped to power the home for awhile.
 
This is a heat dome, a stationary high pressure area formed by what is called an Omega Block in the jet stream. There are two low pressure areas on each coast trapping this heat in between and keeping it stationary. High pressure = no clouds, lots of sun, and in this case dew points are also abnormally high so things can’t cool off much at night either. Supposedly the Omega Block is related to a differential in ocean temperatures across the continent. Don’t know the specifics.

There is plenty of wind. We’ve been having 15-25 mph winds many days.
 
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Since I am in the market for a car, I was speaking with a dear friend that owns a Tesla. I was curious what the EV equivalent was of a gas can to get fuel to an EV that was out of juice. She told me she once was so low in charge the car told her to get to a charger NOW.

The car directed her to one-of a nearby private individual. These folks were surprised but graciously allowed my friend to charge. Of course she was very grateful and returned later with flowers and a $100 gift card for their trouble.
...
I have to assume she was not in the type of neighborhood where she could get shot by the homeowner!
 
And, there’s the rub. About half the population does not have a home that provides a place for a private charging area. That is the big IF that needs to be dealt with.

This is just my observation but everybody I know who has an EV loves the car. Even non Tesla EVs. And, everybody also has a private charging area (garage, carport, etc.) where they can charge their car while living the non EV parts of their lives.
Yes. And interesting that the assumption here seems to be everyone has a garage.

It is why these will remain useful more for the relatively wealthy.

Without a garage the value proposition is far different.

I do have a garage and am in the target market.
 
http://https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a40897680/ev-public-charging-at-private-homes/


Our first destination was a complex of tiny homes a few miles from the beach in South Haven, where, with no answers to our in-app texts, we pulled up in front of a charging Chrysler Pacifica and clumsily asked a woman sitting on the nearby patio if we could borrow some charge. "I'm sorry, what?" she said, looking confused. "Can we plug into your charging station? You're listed on the PlugShare map." Her eyes widened, and she started laughing. "Oh my gosh, yes, of course. I'm sorry, I forgot we were on there. Nobody ever uses it."
 
Yes. And interesting that the assumption here seems to be everyone has a garage.

It is why these will remain useful more for the relatively wealthy.

Without a garage the value proposition is far different.

I do have a garage and am in the target market.




It is interesting that there is a discussion on how to get property tax relief to people in Texas.... but during the debate someone said that 51% of households RENT... I wonder what it is nationally.



Now, I know that some rent a house, but I doubt that they will cough up the money for a charging station.


But if half the people rent then there will be a problem with charging from most people...
 



Thank you for validating. I am sure my friend was not mistaken.

Not validating. You are completely misunderstanding. Plugshare is just a peer-to-peer platform where users can let the world know they are willing to share their private charger or outlet. No car that I know of would direct a driver to a private residence for charging. It's like posting on Twitter that you have several gas cans at home that you're willing to share for free.
 
Wouldn't it be useful for the EV manufacturers to post ranges at extreme temperature conditions since extreme temperatures have much more of an effect on EV range than on ICE EPA fuel usage estimates?

No. This is not helpful because the effect of cold or hot is ambient temperature is almost negligible to the car itself. It's the excess energy required to keep the human in the cabin at a constant temperature that is taking away energy from moving the vehicle. That energy is basically the same for any vehicle. The effect on range is due to the very high efficiency of the EV drivetrain. The higher the efficiency, the more range you'll lose per unit of energy that you take away. Efficient HVAC can help a bit, but really the best way would be to just not run the HVAC at 75F when it's sub-zero outside or 65F when it's over 3-digits outside.
 
Not validating. You are completely misunderstanding. Plugshare is just a peer-to-peer platform where users can let the world know they are willing to share their private charger or outlet. No car that I know of would direct a driver to a private residence for charging. It's like posting on Twitter that you have several gas cans at home that you're willing to share for free.
Lol.

Well an app used by EV owners certainly did so!
 
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