The Electric Vehicle Thread

[travelover]

...... Besides the ICEs sound better.

Tesla needs to add a bracket to mount playing cards next to the wheel spokes.

 

[Car-Guy]

I wonder how much of the battery charge was required for that run (how many KWH). I'm guessing it was substantial. In any case, I suspect it will be a while until an all electric will participate in a "real" race - especially against ICE cars.

Imagine the 24 hours of Le Mans for all electric vehicles. It takes 18 days due to the time to recharge the batteries.

Why should it be a while? Sure conventional charging of an EV's battery pack would take far too long to successfully compete in a races like Le Mans or NASCAR. So why not battery swaps? ICE powered cars stop to refuel lots of times at Le Mans (like most road races)... The equivalent to "adding" gas to an ICE car "would be" swapping battery packs in an EV... Musk has demonstrated it can be done commercially in ~90sec on a Tesla... I suspect for road races, they could figure ways to do it even much faster.

 

[MRG]

Live vicariously!

Enjoy the ride while the Tesla Model S Plaid sets a new Nürburgring lap record for a production electric vehicle.

More info:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alista...ew-ev-nurburgring-lap-record/?sh=31340eeb78fc
https://www.theverge.com/2021/9/10/22666576/tesla-model-s-plaid-nurburgring-ev-production-record

Is that what you ordered?

 

[ERD50]

.... The manufacturers of ICE hyper cars must be worried about the future of their companies unless they make enormous changes . Why spend huge sums buying & maintaining them when you can get a Model S for a fraction of the price of a hyper car?

Yes, the hyper EVs have a lot of advantages over the hyper ICEs. Of course, in that area, I think some will still want the noise and sound of going through the gears.

... So why not battery swaps? ICE powered cars stop to refuel lots of times at Le Mans (like most road races)... The equivalent to "adding" gas to an ICE car "would be" swapping battery packs in an EV... Musk has demonstrated it can be done commercially in ~90sec on a Tesla... I suspect for road races, they could figure ways to do it even much faster. ...

Maybe. But I suspect that a true racing car will have those batteries tucked away such that a fast swap won't be so easy. But it is a possibility. Or those flow batteries, where you swap out the depleted electrolyte.

-ERD50

 

[audreyh1]

Is that what you ordered?

No, X LR.

 

[MRG]

No, X LR.

Enjoy.

I met a guy last fall who had just driven Littleton to Pagosa in his new X. The look on his face said everything.

 

[Car-Guy]

Maybe. But I suspect that a true racing car will have those batteries tucked away such that a fast swap won't be so easy. But it is a possibility. Or those flow batteries, where you swap out the depleted electrolyte.

-ERD50

He's put a Tesla in space and lands his Space X rockets ships back on a landing platform with precision... I'm sure he can figure out how to put a quick change battery in a Tesla race car...... And he could likely do it with his spare pocket change. Of course what I call pocket change and what he calls it are two different things.

 

[audreyh1]

That is a stock 4 door vehicle. Straight from the factory. Street legal & can be used in every day errands. The manufacturers of ICE hyper cars must be worried about the future of their companies unless they make enormous changes . Why spend huge sums buying & maintaining them when you can get a Model S for a fraction of the price of a hyper car?

I enjoyed watching the yolk handling.

 

[NW-Bound]

The fastest lap of Nurburgring is held by a Porsche 911 GT2 RS MR, at 6:43. The Tesla Plaid is 7:36. The above Porsche is supposedly a production car.

I suspect a lot depends on the driver's skill, and not just the car.

But if one likes the thrill of speed, then nothing beats watching the motorcycle race at the Isle of Man.

Of course the tracks are different. Still the best average lap speed at Nurburgring by a car is 115.5 mph, while the best motorcycle average lap speed at the Isle of Man is 135.5 mph.

 

[NW-Bound]

Here's the view onboard the Porsche 911 that holds the record for shortest lap time at Nurburgring for a production car.

I know nothing about race car driving, but I think the Porsche driver is much better or more experienced than the Tesla driver.

 

[Car-Guy]

^^^^^


Just as an FYI, I believe the speedometer in the video above is in KPH not MPH since the top speed of a production 911 GT2 RS is "only" around 210 mph (Still pretty dang quick)

 

[audreyh1]

Here's the view onboard the Porsche 911 that holds the record for shortest lap time at Nurburgring for a production car.

That Porsche 911 is not a stock production car. It’s been modified with a racing kit. They spell this out in the video description first paragraph.

Porsche test driver, Lars Kern, continued his winning streak as he smashed another record on the Nürburgring Nordschleife, this time in a 911 GT2 RS fitted with the Manthey Performance Kit. The best time of 6:43.300 minutes now makes it the fastest road car on the track.

 

[zinger1457]

Just as an FYI, I believe the speedometer in the video above is in KPH not MPH since the top speed of a production 911 GT2 RS is "only" around 210 mph (Still pretty dang quick)

Did a similar double take when I first watched the Tesla video and saw the speedometer reaching 250, then realized it must be KPH, still some impressive acceleration and speed.

 

[NW-Bound]

Yes. The displayed speed of the Porsche reached 300 at about 1:15, and that cannot be in mph.

 

[NW-Bound]

That Porsche 911 is not a stock production car. It’s been modified with a racing kit. They spell this out in the video description first paragraph.

OK, you made me research this further out of curiosity (I am not a racing fan, nor a speed fiend ).

That Porsche 911 did have a Performance kit, and here's what that is about.

The Manthey Performance Kit from Porsche Tequipment consists of chassis, aerodynamic and brake components specially developed for the 911 GT2 RS. It also includes the Weissach Package's light magnesium alloy wheels.

Sounds fancy, but what did it get them? A mere 4 seconds off the lap time of a stock 911, a record achieved back in 2017.

In September 2017, a stock Porsche 911 GT2 RS beat the production-car Nürburgring Nordschleife lap record held by Lamborghini's Huracán Performante by five seconds, taking the crown with a time of 6:47.3. Lamborghini fired back this past July when it brought the new Aventador SVJ to the 'Ring and set a blistering 6:44.97 lap.

I think the Tesla may be able to do better than shown (7:36) at the hand of a more experienced driver.

For reference, a Camaro Z28 did 7:37 lap time in 2013.

A Corvette C6 did 7:38 lap time in 2009.

PS. I found out that the Tesla driver is Andreas Simonsen, a professional Swedish racing driver. Maybe it's the car, not the driver.

 

[TriumphTR3fan]

Uh, battery charge capacity and recharging locations and charging times. Besides the ICEs sound better.

Most hyper cars aren’t driven long distance geographically. Many are too uncomfortable & have limited seating/space. They do look cool. As I’ve noticed with our TR3A ( it’s not a hyper car of course, just distinctive) you don’t blend in with other cars in traffic & some will always like that.

 

[NW-Bound]

I enjoyed watching the yolk handling.

I watched both videos of the Tesla and the Porsche 911 runs in their entirety. Here's my observation.

I apologized for thinking the Tesla driver was not good. No, this professional driver was fighting hard with the yoke, in order to keep the car on the track. The poor guy had a hell of a time, compared to the Porsche driver who drove much more "leisurely". The Tesla car did not handle that well! Because there was no engine noise, I thought I could hear the front tires squeal all the time in turns.

Tesla claims the best lap time of "production electric cars", but what's their competition? The Chevy Bolt, the Prius, and their likes?

Tesla cars have a lot of power, and don't do bad on drag races, but on a road with curves, the weight of their batteries may be a real detriment. I suspect that is a big factor of their poor handling. Either that, or Tesla engineers still have a lot to learn from Porsche engineers about car suspension and handling. Even the 2013 Camaro Z28 did as well as the best Tesla.

For comparison, the Tesla S Plaid weighs 4,766 lbs, with 1020 hp, while the Porsche 911 GT2 RS weighs 3,170 lbs, with 700 hp. The Porsche has a tiny advantage in power to weight ratio.

What I observed is that in the straight away near the end of the run, the Porsche reached a speed of 310 kph, while the Tesla got to 268 kph max.

 

[NW-Bound]

Now that I am suddenly curious about how different cars perform on the 'Ring, here's a video of a stock 2012 Corvette ZR1 doing a lap time of 7:19.63.

Note how the driver, a Corvette engineer, also did not have to fight the car that hard in turns, like Andreas Simonsen did with the Tesla.

In the straigthaway near the end, the Vette reached 183 mph, or 295 kph. Ahead of Tesla Plaid, but still behind the Porsche.

 

[ERD50]

....

Tesla claims the best lap time of "production electric cars", but what's their competition? The Chevy Bolt, the Prius, and their likes?

Tesla cars have a lot of power, and don't do bad on drag races, but on a road with curves, the weight of their batteries may be a real detriment. I suspect that is a big factor of their poor handling. Either that, or Tesla engineers still have a lot to learn from Porsche engineers about car suspension and handling. Even the 2013 Camaro Z28 did as well as the best Tesla.

For comparison, the Tesla S Plaid weighs 4,766 lbs, with 1020 hp, while the Porsche 911 GT2 RS weighs 3,170 lbs, with 700 hp. The Porsche has a tiny advantage in power to weight ratio.

What I observed is that in the straight away near the end of the run, the Porsche reached a speed of 310 kph, while the Tesla got to 268 kph max.

Now that I am suddenly curious about how different cars perform on the 'Ring, here's a video of a stock 2012 Corvette ZR1 doing a lap time of 7:19.63.

Note how the driver, a Corvette engineer, also did not have to fight the car that hard in turns, like Andreas Simonsen did with the Tesla.

In the straigthaway near the end, the Vette reached 183 mph, or 295 kph. Ahead of Tesla Plaid, but still behind the Porsche.

...

I bet a lot of EV fans missed that "of 'production electric cars' " disclaimer!

Interesting note on the weight. The battery weight is situated low, lowering the center of gravity, which can help cornering, but I guess it also hurts in just trying to move that extra mass.

Will battery power density (probably more important than energy density for this track run) improve faster than ICE power density? ICE development is not standing still, but I'd imagine batteries are still on a steeper curve?

I'd also figure that Tesla doesn't have as much experience, or motivation, to improve track handling compared to this field of ICE, that have been in the game much longer. So that could help Tesla catch up and overtake, if they improve suspension.

But it's all a pretty meaningless measurement. Race times have just been bragging rights and PR for these companies for over a hundred years. Some may claim that what they learn at the track trickles down to more mundane production vehicles at some point, but I remain skeptical - I think the tech would come about anyhow, maybe, maybe at a slower pace.

-ERD50

 

[GTFan]

I wonder how much of the battery charge was required for that run (how many KWH). I'm guessing it was substantial. In any case, I suspect it will be a while until an all electric will participate in a "real" race - especially against ICE cars.

Imagine the 24 hours of Le Mans for all electric vehicles. It takes 18 days due to the time to recharge the batteries.

I'm guessing y'all haven't watched any Formula E races, that series has been going on for years now. When they first started they swapped cars mid-race, not battery packs. With a mandatory 45 second stop to equalize driver moves. Now there's no swap.

The real problem with EV racing is the absolutely horrific dentist drill sound that the racing motors have. Formula E is entertaining to watch (I've seen all of it, the racing is much better than F1) and it's getting better year after year with track selection (a lot of tracks are cramped in cities), but it's hard to get past that sound. And the races are currently limited to 45 mins. each with current battery tech, including all caution laps.

 

[jimbee]

Tesla claims the best lap time of "production electric cars", but what's their competition? The Chevy Bolt, the Prius, and their likes?

The best production electric competition I can think of for the Tesla S is the Porsche Taycan.

 

[TriumphTR3fan]

The best production electric competition I can think of for the Tesla S is the Porsche Taycan.

It’s been back & forth with them on best times. Porsche has had better reviews for the interior.

 

[NW-Bound]

The best production electric competition I can think of for the Tesla S is the Porsche Taycan.

Yes. Not being a car enthusiast, let alone an EV aficionado, I just learned that too. The reason for Musk to tout the Plaid number was to show it beat the Taycan, at 7:36 against 7:42.

Now, even Porsche did not so well with its EV, albeit its first try. What is it about EVs that make them hard to compete against ICE cars, other than on a drag race? More about this later.

I bet a lot of EV fans missed that "of 'production electric cars' " disclaimer!
...
But it's all a pretty meaningless measurement. Race times have just been bragging rights and PR for these companies for over a hundred years. Some may claim that what they learn at the track trickles down to more mundane production vehicles at some point, but I remain skeptical - I think the tech would come about anyhow, maybe, maybe at a slower pace.

-ERD50

I am not a speed fiend (not any more after I turned 30), but when people pay more money for a performance car and dream of themselves as an F1 racer, they want to see how their car perform.

I am never a fan of drag racing, and am a lot more interested in car handling, not just acceleration but also braking, and cornering. The lap time at Nurburgring would be more interesting to me than time clocked at a drag race, or pure top speeds on a salt flat. I will reiterate that I myself have absolutely no interest in driving the Nurburgring circuit (opened to the public, and it costs 30 euros/lap), or drive the salt flat.

So, I sought out the lap times of production cars, and lo-and-behold, more money does not necessarily buy better performance. Who would have thunk a Camaro could come close to a Corvette?

And more shockingly, how EVs in general trail some lowly ICE cars that are a lot cheaper? It shows that high torque at low speeds means you will win in a drag race off a stop light, but does not buy you much once you are up to cruising speeds on a winding road. And you may not have the same performance as an ICE car with much less power.

Can you believe a Tesla S P84D is behind a 2002 Honda Civic? And Tesla 3 Performance is behind a 2005 VW Golf, and beats a 2002 VW Lupo by only 9 seconds (photo below)?

Here's a short list of the Nurburgring lap times that I found. For the complete list, see: https://wiki2.org/en/List_of_Nürburgring_Nordschleife_lap_times.

If I take my 2020 Chevy Equinox to Nurburgring, I am sure I will be between the Tesla M3 and the Trabant.

6:43 2021 Porsche 911 GT2 RS (with Performance kit)
6:48 2020 Mercedes-AMG GT
6:47 2017 Porsche 911 GT2 RS (stock)
6:52 2016 Lamborghini Huracan

7:00 2019 Ferrari 488 Pista
7:01 2017 Dodge Viper
7:14 2017 Chevy Corvette C7 Z06
7:16 2017 Chevy Camaro ZL1
7:19 2012 Nissan GT-R
7:27 2015 BMW M4 GTS
7:32 2015 Audi R8
7:36 2021 Tesla S Plaid
7:42 2019 Porsche Taycan

7:42 2015 Porsche Cayman
7:43 2017 Honda Civic Type R

8:35 2005 Ford Focus ST
8:47 2001 Honda Civic 2.0i LS
8:50 2015 Tesla Model S P85D

8:53 2005 VW Golf GTI
9:00 2019 Tesla Model 3 Performance

9:02 2007 Chevy Cobalt SS Turbo
9:09 2002 VW Lupo
16:01 1960 Trabant P50 (20 hp)

 

[oneill225]

EV Handling

And more shockingly, how EVs in general trail some lowly ICE cars that are a lot cheaper? It shows that high torque at low speeds means you will win in a drag race off a stop light, but does not buy you much once you are up to cruising speeds on a winding road. And you may not have the same performance as an ICE car with much less power.

I have not seen any evidence that EVs are inherently prone to worse handling than ICE. The consensus view of Tesla has been that the handling is good. Due to the low center of gravity, they corner well and are less prone to roll-overs. The biggest gripe seems to be that the ride in the Model 3 and Y is a little "stiff". This was a choice made by Tesla, not the result of some inherent EV handling issue.

Obviously, ride-comfort is mostly subjective but, in general, EV handling seems to be on par with most ICE, from what I have gathered. This is a decent overview of the every day Model Y driving experience:

 

[Koolau]

I'm guessing y'all haven't watched any Formula E races, that series has been going on for years now. When they first started they swapped cars mid-race, not battery packs. With a mandatory 45 second stop to equalize driver moves. Now there's no swap.

The real problem with EV racing is the absolutely horrific dentist drill sound that the racing motors have. Formula E is entertaining to watch (I've seen all of it, the racing is much better than F1) and it's getting better year after year with track selection (a lot of tracks are cramped in cities), but it's hard to get past that sound. And the races are currently limited to 45 mins. each with current battery tech, including all caution laps.

Interesting. I've watched numerous videos on EV drag races but did not realize there were road races for EVs. Where are these races shown? TV, YouTube?