The Electric Vehicle Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
I have not seen any evidence that EVs are inherently prone to worse handling than ICE. ...

In the context that was given, Nurburgring lap times, the times themselves appear to be evidence, no?

While the EV torque curve may overcome the extra weight for acceleration, it's different story for taking a curve.


-ERD50
 
Interesting. I've watched numerous videos on EV drag races but did not realize there were road races for EVs. Where are these races shown? TV, YouTube?

search youtube: formula e race full


go to 11:30 if this doesn't take you there. It really isn't a pleasant/fun/exciting sound, IMO. Sounds like a group of beginning Theremin players to me. :eek:

https://youtu.be/UoUKEmr9pA0?t=690

-ERD50
 
I have not seen any evidence that EVs are inherently prone to worse handling than ICE. The consensus view of Tesla has been that the handling is good. Due to the low center of gravity, they corner well and are less prone to roll-overs...

That's what I thought too, until I saw the lap times on the Nurburgring circuit. Of course, most Tesla drivers or ICE drivers never push their cars that hard to even know the difference. A heavy car with a low CG will not roll over, but will slide and skid in a turn.

Perception often overrides reality.

In the context that was given, Nurburgring lap times, the times themselves appear to be evidence, no?

While the EV torque curve may overcome the extra weight for acceleration, it's different story for taking a curve.

The poor lap times of Tesla cars were very surprising to me.

I will look on the Web to see what professional drivers say about this. Of course, it does not mean much to an ordinary street driver like myself. I don't drive my cars like that, particularly not my motorhome. :)
 
Last edited:
Earlier in the thread, people talk about future races of EVs. And it did not take me long to find on the Web the VW ID electric race car.

VW ID holds the best Nurburgring lap time of 6:05. It beat the Porsche 911, but then it is not a street legal car.

And in terms of pure power, it also holds the record for best climb time of the Pikes Peak at 7:57. The next inline is again the Porsche 911 GT2 RS at 9:37.

The Pikes Peak Hill Climb is a long-held open contest in Colorado. The route is 12.42 miles (20 km), and climbs 4720 ft for an average slope of 7.2%. It used to be a dirt road, but has been all paved with asphalt.

Below is a photo of the VW ID that set the Pikes Peak record in 2018.

An ICE car that did well is the Bentayga, an SUV built by Bentley, at 10:50 in 2018. I did not know Bentley made SUV. Anyway, it shows that the Hill Climb is a test of the car power, and not so much agility. If you want to claim pure power, this is where you want to go.

A Tesla Model 3 performance did 11:03 in 2020. A hybrid car, 2019 Acura NSX, did 10:02 also in 2020, a full minute faster than the Tesla.

1280px-Volkswagen_I.D._R_Pikes_Peak_at_IAA_2019_IMG_0313.jpg
 
Last edited:
In the context that was given, Nurburgring lap times, the times themselves appear to be evidence, no?

While the EV torque curve may overcome the extra weight for acceleration, it's different story for taking a curve.


-ERD50

I am commenting on the notion or suggestion that EVs are at an inherent disadvantage compared to ICE when it comes to overall handling. My context is every day driving.
 
I am commenting on the notion or suggestion that EVs are at an inherent disadvantage compared to ICE when it comes to overall handling. My context is every day driving.

I understand. Since the context that was being discussed was unfavorable to EVs, you changed the context rather than acknowledge the evidence that the EV was at a disadvantage in this specific case. It's actually rather entertaining.

But I don't disagree that many consider a Tesla to be a very good handling car, due to that low center of gravity. Both can be true.

-ERD50
 
And as I mentioned that the electric race car VW I.D. R holds the record lap time of 6:05 at Nurburgring, here's a video of its lap.

The car looks very surefooted, and handles the curves with ease. Of course, it is built from the ground up as a race car, but here's the main difference. It weighs a mere 2,400 lbs, including the driver. The battery capacity is 45-kWh. It burns 24.7 kWh (more 1/2 of the battery capacity) to do the 6-minute Nurburgring lap.

This also explains a question posed earlier: how long would a battery last in a race car? Extrapolating from the above experience, we can say that it's about 10 minutes.


PS. Comparing the run of the VW I.D. to that of the Porsche 911, I see something clearly. The EV laptime is faster mainly because it is lighter, and can take the curves at a higher speed. Its top speed and acceleration are far below that of the Porsche. It's simply the ability to maintain a higher speed through the turns that wins the race.

The above means a Formula One race car will do just as well.



 
Last edited:
And as I mentioned that the electric race car VW I.D. R holds the record lap time of 6:05 at Nurburgring, here's a video of its lap.

The car looks very surefooted, and handles the curves with ease. Of course, it is built from the ground up as a race car, but here's the main difference. It weighs a mere 2,400 lbs, including the driver. The battery capacity is 45-kWh. It burns 24.7 kWh (more 1/2 of the battery capacity) to do the 6-minute Nurburgring lap.

This also explains a question posed earlier: how long would a battery last in a race car? Extrapolating from the above experience, we can say that it's about 10 minutes.
....

Interesting. And that got me wondering about the how long the battery would last, lifetime-wise.

"1C" means the rate that fully charges or discharges the battery in one hour. Generally (and over-simplified), charging or discharging at greater than 1C rates will shorten the battery life.

24.7 ∕ 45 ≈ 0.55 discharged, in 365 second, which is (365 ∕ 60) ∕ 60 ≈ 0.101 hours, for a "C" rate of 0.55 ∕ 0.101 ≈ 5.45. That's pretty hard on the battery.

Very rough estimate for a Tesla would be ~ 330 watt-hours/mile @ 60 mph (a mile/minute), ~ 19.8 kWh per hour. For an 85kWh battery, that's a C rate of just 0.233.

So the race EV is pushing the battery about 23x harder than a Tesla in normal driving. More like 27x for a 100 kWh battery, and my 330 watt-hour @ 60mph might be a little high.

Of course, I'm sure they don't get a long life out of the race ICE engines running like that either!

edit/add: Apparently, that VW does not have regen braking. The limit seems to be getting energy out of the battery, not range, and pumping that current back in would probably just create more heat for the battery? And require more electronics, and maybe complicate the handling between the regen and mechanical brakes?

-ERD50
 
Last edited:
Interesting. And that got me wondering about the how long the battery would last, lifetime-wise.

"1C" means the rate that fully charges or discharges the battery in one hour. Generally (and over-simplified), charging or discharging at greater than 1C rates will shorten the battery life...

The 1C limitation usually applies to cells meant for electronics, such as laptops, cell phones, etc... These cells are built to maximize capacity, in order to have a long run time. On the other hand, there are cells built differently for high-drain applications. The former is called "energy cell", while the latter is called "power cell".

An example of power cell is cells built for power tools. These can handle 20C, meaning you can safely draw enough power to deplete them in a mere 3 minutes. A 18650 cell (about 1-1/2 the size of an AA cell) can stand a current drawn of 30A. These cells have the disadvantage of having lower capacities, often only 1/2 to 2/3 the capacity of the energy cell. Moneywise, their retail price is about the same.

Another example of power cell is lithium cells used for RC planes or drones. You can get cells with drain capacity as high as 120C. With that ridiculous high drain, you can safely deplete the cell in 30 seconds. I don't know what applications would need such a burst of power.

If you use an energy cell as a power cell, the high drain will overheat them, and they may just blow up. Fires, explosions, injuries, and mayhem may occur, and it is best to avoid it.

On the other hand, there's no harm in using a power cell at a low drain. You just do not get the same capacity as an energy cell.

Another disadvantage of the power cell, other than a lower capacity is a shorter life. While an energy cell may last 500 cycles, a power cell may last only 100.

Back on the VW I.D. race car, depleting the battery in 10 minutes means a 6C drain rate. That's quite benign, compared to current cells used already in power tools and RC toys and drones.
 
Last edited:
I understand. Since the context that was being discussed was unfavorable to EVs, you changed the context rather than acknowledge the evidence that the EV was at a disadvantage in this specific case. It's actually rather entertaining.

But I don't disagree that many consider a Tesla to be a very good handling car, due to that low center of gravity. Both can be true.

-ERD50

Glad to see we agree.
 
As mentioned, anyone who can pony up 30 euros can take a lap on the Nurburgring circuit. The only requirement is that your vehicle is legally registered for public roads.

In contrast with runs made by car makers to set official speeds (they pay to have exclusive use of the track), the open public use periods can be quite busy, and one can get hurt by mistakes made by others. Of course, the accident causer will have to pay for damages.

I would not care to try this. Would you?




More demolition derby? Too many Joe Blows who fancy themselves a Formula One racer. :nonono:


 
Last edited:
I think I've just learned 3X what I knew about batteries and EVs. Thanks all.
 
... Apparently, that VW does not have regen braking. The limit seems to be getting energy out of the battery, not range, and pumping that current back in would probably just create more heat for the battery? And require more electronics, and maybe complicate the handling between the regen and mechanical brakes?

-ERD50



I also don't think the VW I.D. has regen braking. In terms of input power, draining 24.5 kWh in a 6-minute lap time means an average DC power of 245 kW or 328 hp, before the conversion loss of the motor. Maximum spec of the motor is 500 kW, or 670 hp. That's really not a lot, compared to Formula One engines capable of 1000 hp.

But then, it's not all about raw power. We are not talking about drag racing here.


And by the way, I was again very wrong to say that the Pikes Peak Hill Climb race is all about power and not agility. While it is true that the track is tough mainly due to its slope causing the average speed to be lower than on the Nurburgring track, it also has some hairpin turns that become challenging when the car has to maintain as high a speed as possible to make the time.

There have been plenty of accidents, such as the following.


PS. When we start to see EVs doing the 24-hour LeMans, it is quite likely to see race cars having regen braking. For an endurance run like the 24-hour LeMans, the time to swap out the battery must be debated against the longer battery run time with regen braking. A 10-min battery run time is awful; you need to swap batteries almost 144 times in 24 hours.


 
Last edited:
As mentioned, anyone who can pony up 30 euros can take a lap on the Nurburgring circuit. The only requirement is that your vehicle is legally registered for public roads.

In contrast with runs made by car makers to set official speeds (they pay to have exclusive use of the track), the open public use periods can be quite busy, and one can get hurt by mistakes made by others. Of course, the accident causer will have to pay for damages.

......

More demolition derby? Too many Joe Blows who fancy themselves a Formula One racer. :nonono:
.......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaUAyawLTEA

Great fun to watch those, I'm amazed at these people doing this. :flowers:
 
As mentioned, anyone who can pony up 30 euros can take a lap on the Nurburgring circuit. The only requirement is that your vehicle is legally registered for public roads.

In contrast with runs made by car makers to set official speeds (they pay to have exclusive use of the track), the open public use periods can be quite busy, and one can get hurt by mistakes made by others. Of course, the accident causer will have to pay for damages.

I would not care to try this. Would you?
I don't know that I would do it at the Ring, but I did drive Watkins Glen 50 years ago. DW and I were traveling in the area and stopped at the race course. Not a soul around but one gate guy (IIRC). I asked if I could drive around the track and he said okay. I made one circuit and left. No idea if that is still possible - I would doubt it in this day of suing for pocket lint over improper pronoun usage (slight exaggeration:blush:) so YMMV.
 
And by the way, I was again very wrong to say that the Pikes Peak Hill Climb race is all about power and not agility. While it is true that the track is tough mainly due to its slope causing the average speed to be lower than on the Nurburgring track, it also has some hairpin turns that become challenging when the car has to maintain as high a speed as possible to make the time.

There have been plenty of accidents, such as the following.


PS. When we start to see EVs doing the 24-hour LeMans, it is quite likely to see race cars having regen braking. For an endurance run like the 24-hour LeMans, the time to swap out the battery must be debated against the longer battery run time with regen braking. A 10-min battery run time is awful; you need to swap batteries almost 144 times in 24 hours.



I drove up the mountain a couple of years ago. Can't imagine driving up it at the speed these guys are going. They were lucky to walk away basically w/o a scratch.
 
As mentioned, anyone who can pony up 30 euros can take a lap on the Nurburgring circuit. The only requirement is that your vehicle is legally registered for public roads.

In contrast with runs made by car makers to set official speeds (they pay to have exclusive use of the track), the open public use periods can be quite busy, and one can get hurt by mistakes made by others. Of course, the accident causer will have to pay for damages.

I would not care to try this. Would you?
I don't know that I would do it at the Ring, but I did drive Watkins Glen 50 years ago. DW and I were traveling in the area and stopped at the race course. Not a soul around but one gate guy (IIRC). I asked if I could drive around the track and he said okay. I made one circuit and left. No idea if that is still possible - I would doubt it in this day of suing for pocket lint over improper pronoun usage (slight exaggeration:blush:) so YMMV.

So did I! I have some crazy cousins that live there. We didn't ask permission just drove on it like we belonged there under nights cover.
 
Now, I have to see what Watkins Glen is. Y'all got me interested into too much auto stuff.

But here's what I found about the use of electric drive train in racing. I just learned that they have allowed the use of hybrid technology in Formula One racing as well as the Le Mans 24-hour race for quite a few years now.

And regarding the lap time on Nurburgring track, Porsche set the record for non-production cars with the Porsche 919 Hybrid EVO. This car weighs a measly 1,900 lbs, has a 2-liter 740hp ICE driving the rear wheels, and a brake regen/motor for the front axle capable of 400 hp. For a reminder, the electric VW I.D. weighs 2,400 lbs.

In 2018, this car conquered the Nurburgring track at 5:20 lap time, and this record still holds for a race car. In the following video, the car was seen reaching speeds above 300 kph (186 mph) between turns throughout the lap, in fact as high as 340 kph, and at the straightaway a top speed of 369 kph (229 mph).

One should compare the video of this hybrid car to that of the EV VW I.D. (6:05 lap time), and of the ICE Porsche 911 (6:43), on the same track. This hybrid car maintained higher speeds through the turns, then accelerated between turns like a bat out of hell. It took the turns with ease.

Holy Moly! Hybrid cars rule!

 
Last edited:
I know that people like looking at the top speeds of these cars and are in awe.... but... they have nothing on a drag car...


I know this is true for an older corvette.... probably still true today... drag cars no longer drive 1/4 mile...


SOOO, if you give a Corvette a 5 mile run so it can reach top speed when it hits the start line.... and the drag car has to sit there waiting for the Corvette to arrive doing 200 mph when it reaches the start line... the drag car WILL WIN the 1/4 mile race...


Yes, the drag car can start from zero, get to over 300 mph and pass the Corvette all within the 1/4 mile.. and less than 4 secs...





3.58 secs @ 386 mph



Fastest 1/4 mile ever 3.58 secs @ 386 mph (621.61 km/h)Santa Pod dragstrip is the venue in which the current world drag racing record, a time of 3.58 seconds
 
I know that people like looking at the top speeds of these cars and are in awe.... but... they have nothing on a drag car...

Different competition...

A drag car does not have to take any turn. Race cars do.

And if acceleration is what it is all about, then a drag car has nothing on a rocket sled. :)

The world record for a rocket sled is Mach 8.5 (6416 mph). It is not revealed how many Gs it achieved, acceleration and deceleration too.

PS. The above supersonic rocket sled was obviously unmanned. Manned rocket sleds could not be that fast, without killing the test subjects.

 
Last edited:
About the Glen, yes, I just learned about it on Wikipedia. Told you, I am not into racing. I knew of Le Mans as a kid, and the Indy 500, and that was about it.

By the way, Wikipedia is my goto source.
 
In the 1970's, several friends and I used to camp out at the track Thursday through Sunday when the Formula One U.S. Grand Prix was held there the first weekend in October every year. Crazy times back then. And always a great race.
 
Phoenix hosted the US Formula One for 3 years, 1989 to 1991.

I was never interested enough to go downtown to watch.


PS. About the Pikes Peak Hill Climb competition, I learned about it when I visited Pikes Peak some years ago. It was not by driving, but by taking the cog train from Manitou.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom