The Electric Vehicle Thread

[ken830]

I am starting to warm to the idea of owning an EV based on talking to my neighbors and what has been written here in favor. That said, there are both pros/cons as with anything, but I would say that part of the harsh treatment that EVs get is due to gov't strongly pushing them in opposition to what a free market would do.

If you have the means to charge at home, it's hard for me to think of any cons. If it were truly a free market, we wouldn't have the government spending so much money on the military to ensure we have access to oil supplies in some pretty sketchy parts of the world.

 

[Popeye]

If you have the means to charge at home, it's hard for me to think of any cons. If it were truly a free market, we wouldn't have the government spending so much money on the military to ensure we have access to oil supplies in some pretty sketchy parts of the world.

We have plenty of oil here in North America. We’re guaranteeing access for Europe and Asia more than for ourselves.

 

[ken830]

We have plenty of oil here in North America. We’re guaranteeing access for Europe and Asia more than for ourselves.

Does that really change anything?

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

I am starting to warm to the idea of owning an EV based on talking to my neighbors and what has been written here in favor. That said, there are both pros/cons as with anything, but I would say that part of the harsh treatment that EVs get is due to gov't strongly pushing them in opposition to what a free market would do.

I'm on year 6 of EV driving. Sold my ICE cars in January of '18.

I haven't encountered any cons.

 

[Koolau]

I'm on year 6 of EV driving. Sold my ICE cars in January of '18.

I haven't encountered any cons.

Would you be willing to give a more detailed report on your experience.

I'd especially be interested in how much you drive. What miles/Kwh you get. Issues with charging - if any. Costs, etc. etc., You obviously don't owe it to us, but it would be very interesting to the group that follows this thread.

Much appreciation in advance if you with to comment on your specific experiences. Aloha.

 

[ERD50]

..... If it were truly a free market, we wouldn't have the government spending so much money on the military to ensure we have access to oil supplies in some pretty sketchy parts of the world.

Wow. Really, did you read the HOT BUTTON notice before you clicked? Have you read the mods recommendations? Injecting the military/Middle East into this is a sizzling white HOT BUTTON.

I doubt that situation would change one iota if half the cars in the US were EVs. If the military needs to protect the shipping lanes, they still need to protect them, even if the US traffic were cut in half (which it wouldn't be - oil is used for plastics, fertilizer, jet fuel, etc) .

First google hit:

About 12% of U.S. total petroleum imports and 12% of U.S. crude oil imports were from Persian Gulf countries in 2022.

And what about the materials for EVs: lithium, cobalt , rare earth magnet materials to name a few. Don't those come from "some pretty sketchy parts of the world." ?

Pot calling the kettle black?

Seriously, tone it down - there is merit to this thread, and it's on the brink of getting shut down.

-ERD50

 

[Koolau]

Wow. Really, did you read the HOT BUTTON notice before you clicked? Have you read the mods recommendations? Injecting the military/Middle East into this is a sizzling white HOT BUTTON.

I doubt that situation would change one iota if half the cars in the US were EVs. If the military needs to protect the shipping lanes, they still need to protect them, even if the US traffic were cut in half (which it wouldn't be - oil is used for plastics, fertilizer, jet fuel, etc) .

First google hit:



And what about the materials for EVs: lithium, cobalt , rare earth magnet materials to name a few. Don't those come from "some pretty sketchy parts of the world." ?

Pot calling the kettle black?

Seriously, tone it down - there is merit to this thread, and it's on the brink of getting shut down.

-ERD50

Hear, hear! Don't make a good thread go bad.

 

[ken830]

Wow. Really, did you read the HOT BUTTON notice before you clicked? Have you read the mods recommendations? Injecting the military/Middle East into this is a sizzling white HOT BUTTON.

I doubt that situation would change one iota if half the cars in the US were EVs. If the military needs to protect the shipping lanes, they still need to protect them, even if the US traffic were cut in half (which it wouldn't be - oil is used for plastics, fertilizer, jet fuel, etc) .

First google hit:



And what about the materials for EVs: lithium, cobalt , rare earth magnet materials to name a few. Don't those come from "some pretty sketchy parts of the world." ?

Pot calling the kettle black?

Seriously, tone it down - there is merit to this thread, and it's on the brink of getting shut down.

-ERD50

I'm not trying to bring up anything controversial. I'm just saying nothing is "truly a free market" and EVs and gasoline cars is much less "free market" than many markets...

EDIT: and I don't see anything wrong with discussing controversial topics, as long as we're on-topic and all cordial.

 

[Koolau]

I'm not trying to bring up anything controversial. I'm just saying nothing is "truly a free market" and EVs and gasoline cars is much less "free market" than many markets...

EDIT: and I don't see anything wrong with discussing controversial topics, as long as we're on-topic and all cordial.

Because, even with the best intentions, it always ends badly and Porky does his thing.

Hopefully, now returning you...

 

[ERD50]

....

EDIT: and I don't see anything wrong with discussing controversial topics, as long as we're on-topic and all cordial.

I doubt many see this comment from you as being "cordial":

Do I get a bonus or just your opprobrium? I don't understand the vitriol on EVs.

op·pro·bri·um
noun
noun: opprobrium

harsh criticism or censure.
"his films and the critical opprobrium they have generated"

the public disgrace arising from someone's shameful conduct.
"the opprobrium of being closely associated with gangsters"


: something that brings disgrace
2
a
: public disgrace or ill fame that follows from conduct considered grossly wrong or vicious
Collaborators with the enemy did not escape the opprobrium of the townspeople.
b
: contempt, reproach
The bombing of the church was met with widespread opprobrium.

So you're being cordial, while others bringing a different viewpoint are "vitriol"?

How 'bout we just discuss the features of EVs that potential buyers, or just interested by-standers, might be interested in? I think that's what the mods had in mind when they added the HOT BUITTON, rather than just close the thread (and they have closed many worthwhile threads IMO, but that's up to them).

-ERD50

 

[ken830]

First google hit:

About 12% of U.S. total petroleum imports and 12% of U.S. crude oil imports were from Persian Gulf countries in 2022.

And what about the materials for EVs: lithium, cobalt , rare earth magnet materials to name a few. Don't those come from "some pretty sketchy parts of the world." ?

Pot calling the kettle black?

The production of EVs, even if using lithium, cobalt, and rare earth metals, is a relatively small amount and only during production during the scaling-up years before domestic recycling programs are available to create a nearly closed-loop system whereas the fueling of a gasoline vehicle from crude is a on-going lifetime consumable (I know fuel for EVs is multi-varied and can include oil). Let's not blow-up the the small amount of mined material at production disproportionately. Nothing is absolute. Nothing is 100% anything.

Tesla is going to be starting domestic lithium production (starting with refining). Even though Tesla batteries use very little cobalt, they have been selling a lot of LFP-based batteries that use 100% cobalt-free cells. They are also planning to go back to using zero rare earth metals in their permanent-motor drivetrains in future vehicles (until the Model 3, Tesla used AC induction motors exclusively, so never used rare earths before 2017).

Last year, Tesla disclosed all suppliers for their lithium, cobalt, and nickel. You can see that here:
https://electrek.co/2022/05/06/tesla-list-battery-material-suppliers-long-term-nickel-deal-vale/ Mining and refining sites include Australia, Argentina, Canada, China, DRC, New Caledonia, USA.

If you read the latest Impact Report (https://www.tesla.com/impact), you'll see that Tesla has strict policies for ensuring they source responsibly and have strict requirements for their entire supply chain. They constantly address issues of forced labor, human rights, human trafficking, and terrorism funding. Even at this year's shareholder meeting, a ridiculous "shareholder" proposal about child-labor was brought up again -- there seems to be no getting away from these "concerns," much like range anxiety.

I'm most familiar with Tesla, so I cannot speak to how much better or worse the other EV manufacturers are with their supply chain and manufacturing processes. Point is, there are ways to achieve a better, less negatively-impactful personal transportation product with an EV than a gasoline vehicle. And we are moving in that direction. A gasoline vehicle just cannot provide that future.

I doubt many see this comment from you as being "cordial":

So you're being cordial, while others bringing a different viewpoint are "vitriol"?

How 'bout we just discuss the features of EVs that potential buyers, or just interested by-standers, might be interested in? I think that's what the mods had in mind when they added the HOT BUITTON, rather than just close the thread (and they have closed many worthwhile threads IMO, but that's up to them).

-ERD50

Please point out where I was not being respectful or cordial with my comment. And where I called someone else's viewpoint "vitriol"?? I simply responded to someone thinking EVs aren't in a free market the way gasoline cars were and I pointed out one obvious way that the "free market" doesn't exist for gasoline cars. That's not controversial to me -- it's just the way it is. I didn't call anyone names. I didn't put anyone down. I didn't treat anyone with disrespect.

EDIT: ERD50: I see you quoted someone else.. about the "opprobrium" comment... did you think that was me?

 

[eytonxav]

I'm on year 6 of EV driving. Sold my ICE cars in January of '18.

I haven't encountered any cons.

The only con I am concerned about is if there is a need to travel distances and not being where the battery can be recharged and/or in a reasonable amount of time. Most on my driving is local, but who knows when a longer trip will be needed. Also, I did read something recently about a Tesla that had miles to go on its battery, but the owner got locked out of the car because the regular battery than runs things like the locking mechanism died and the owner had to have the car towed to a Tesla repair center, could not even get into the car.

 

[joesxm3]

You can always rent a car for that extremely unlikely long trip to the area without charging.

If the small battery dies, you can open the towing port and put a tiny 12 volt battery to two wires to open the frunk and either replace or jump the small battery.

 

[ken830]

The only con I am concerned about is if there is a need to travel distances and not being where the battery can be recharged and/or in a reasonable amount of time. Most on my driving is local, but who knows when a longer trip will be needed. Also, I did read something recently about a Tesla that had miles to go on its battery, but the owner got locked out of the car because the regular battery than runs things like the locking mechanism died and the owner had to have the car towed to a Tesla repair center, could not even get into the car.

If the low-voltage battery dies, you will be unable to unlock the car and unable to energize the contactors of the high-voltage battery. This won't normally happen unless the battery is worn to a point of failure. To combat this, the vehicle monitors the battery health and warns you ahead of time. A few years ago, after about 7 years of ownership, I got a warning that my 12V battery needed to be replaced and Tesla couldn't schedule a mobile service technician to replace it immediately, but felt comfortable having me drive it for another week or two -- worked out fine at the end.

If it actually dies for some reason, there is a port in the front of the vehicle that will allow you to power it to release the frunk. With access to the frunk, you can access the 12V battery to "jump" it. As soon as the 12V power is there, it can energize the HV contactors and that will begin to charge the 12V battery through the DC-DC converter.

All of this is really a concern for older cars... A few years ago, Tesla switched from using traditional 12V lead acid car batteries (that aren't great for repeated deep-cycling) to a Li-Ion-based "12V" battery that last much longer -- probably beyond the life of the vehicle.

 

[folivier]

I'm getting close to replacing my 2011 Tahoe so I did a bunch of research into Teslas. Even joined a facebook group to ask a few questions. My main concern is our trips to our cabin. In summer no problem, I have a 50amp receptacle that I could charge from. But on our winter trips I have to park in a lot nearby with no charging. Temperatures are commonly much below freezing. And once there we only use the car once or twice a month. That is where an EV won't work for me. Almost everyone on the fb group said that situation would be a big problem.
For the rest of our driving an EV would be great, I can set up charging in my garage. Most of our trips would be 100 miles or less.
Also on the fb group most of the guys there said that temperatures greatly affect range especially cold temps.
So for me an EV isn't there yet. Perhaps one day?

 

[audreyh1]

You can always rent a car for that extremely unlikely long trip to the area without charging.

If the small battery dies, you can open the towing port and put a tiny 12 volt battery to two wires to open the frunk and either replace or jump the small battery.

+1

 

[Koolau]

You can always rent a car for that extremely unlikely long trip to the area without charging.

There was a time I wouldn't have been concerned about renting a car. Since Covid, everything I've heard about car rental has put me off (price, service, availability, etc.) Perhaps that has all changed back now.

Honestly, for a Tesla, I would only be concerned about the extra travel time - not the ability to charge. Other brands, I don't know enough about regarding long trips.

Aloha

 

[audreyh1]

There was a time I wouldn't have been concerned about renting a car. Since Covid, everything I've heard about car rental has put me off (price, service, availability, etc.) Perhaps that has all changed back now.

Honestly, for a Tesla, I would only be concerned about the extra travel time - not the ability to charge. Other brands, I don't know enough about regarding long trips.

Aloha

Car rental is completely back to normal and prices have come down considerably and plenty of competition. This year I’ve been seeing the cheapest rental prices in a very long time.

We did several car rentals during Covid as our car was getting too old for so many cross country trips plus a couple of times we needed a mini van for moving stuff. It worked out OK even though the prices were still higher. On one occasion (Dec 2012?) I had a hard time renting, this was at ATL airport where all but one company was booked up even weeks in advance. I also had to wait in line a long time for the car, but I got it. That is now over, ATL airport rentals are readily available and less expensive even compared to pre-covid and no waiting.

 

[Koolau]

Car rental is completely back to normal and prices have come down considerably and plenty of competition.

We did several rentals during Covid as our car was getting too old for so many cross country trips plus a couple of times we needed a mini van for moving stuff. It worked out OK even though the prices were still higher. On one occasion I had a hard time renting, this was at ATL airport where all but one company was booked up even weeks in advance. I also had to wait in line a long time for the car, but I got it. That is now over, ATL airport rentals are readily available and less expensive even compared to pre-covid and no lines.

Thanks. This is good to hear. I haven't needed a rental for a long time, but we keep getting further out on that "car-age" curve as well as having deleted our back-up vehicles. So a rental is very likely in our future.

So, slightly back on topic. I'm sure some of the rental places rent EV's. Is this a big "thing" or do they just offer EV's to try them out? I did a quick search and find that, yes, you can rent one, but details are sketchy (or my search skills are slipping.)

Anyone try an EV rental? Experiences.

Sorry if I've missed this in the past.

 

[JoeWras]

Rentals are a good compromise for those who only have occasional need where charging is a problem.

In a similar fashion, also am a fan of rentals instead of buying some huge pickup truck that is used once a year to carry the fridge or whatever. This applies whether you have an EV sedan or a small ICE car. Just rent the truck for the occasional use.

Now that the pandemic rebound rental problem is over, what still bothers me about renting is how the companies have gone overboard in trying to charge people for damage they didn't cause, and that kind of thing. Still too many fresh stories about that. And I'm not even talking about the people who wrongly were put in jail due to Hertz's mixup on reporting the car stolen.

 

[audreyh1]

Hertz made a big deal about offering Teslas for rental a couple of years ago, mostly Model 3s, and a few other car companies also rent EVs. We rented a Model Y from Hertz in May because it was available at the San Jose airport. They did a good job - it was a very pleasant rental experience, no kinks at all so they’ve got it down. Hertz sent emails with good tutorials info and videos beforehand so they definitely try to get a newbie up to speed.

You don’t need to rent to try out a Tesla they are readily available for test drives from Tesla service centers, although if you want a longer period you could rent one.

 

[audreyh1]

Rentals are a good compromise for those who only have occasional need where charging is a problem.

In a similar fashion, also am a fan of rentals instead of buying some huge pickup truck that is used once a year to carry the fridge or whatever. This applies whether you have an EV sedan or a small ICE car. Just rent the truck for the occasional use.

Now that the pandemic rebound rental problem is over, what bothers me is how the companies have gone overboard in trying to charge people for damage they didn't cause, and that kind of thing. Still too many fresh stories about that. And I'm not even talking about the people who wrongly were put in jail due to Hertz's mixup on reporting the car stolen.

Exactly, we were going back and forth between DF’s estate many states away, and also needed to move/carry some stuff so we rented for several trips. On top of our car being ancient.

Fortunately I have not run into any of that charging me for pre-existing damage from any of the companies and rented from several different ones lately, knock on wood!

Yes, I read about the Hertz stolen car snafu - that was bad. But I still rented a Tesla from them.

 

[Montecfo]

The large issues for me are lack of charging locations, time of charging, repair facilities, range, fire risk, and lack of grid robustness and available capacity.

Also technological change as current (lol) crop of EVs are likely to be outdated as tech improves.

 

[Midpack]

The large issues for me are lack of charging locations, time of charging, repair facilities, range, fire risk, and lack of grid robustness and available capacity.

Also technological change as current (lol) crop of EVs are likely to be outdated as tech improves.

I gather you aren't able to charge at home? Many EV owners do so, it makes some of your concerns non issues. And I am sure you've seen the articles showing the incidence of ICE car fires is much higher than EVs (both on a per thousand basis).

https://electrek.co/2022/01/12/gove...e-significantly-more-prone-to-fires-than-evs/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwi...uired-for-definitive-verdict/?sh=5c226ba2327e

 

[ken830]

I'm getting close to replacing my 2011 Tahoe so I did a bunch of research into Teslas. Even joined a facebook group to ask a few questions. My main concern is our trips to our cabin. In summer no problem, I have a 50amp receptacle that I could charge from. But on our winter trips I have to park in a lot nearby with no charging. Temperatures are commonly much below freezing. And once there we only use the car once or twice a month. That is where an EV won't work for me. Almost everyone on the fb group said that situation would be a big problem.
For the rest of our driving an EV would be great, I can set up charging in my garage. Most of our trips would be 100 miles or less.
Also on the fb group most of the guys there said that temperatures greatly affect range especially cold temps.
So for me an EV isn't there yet. Perhaps one day?

Where is your cabin and why can't you park in the same place during the winter? Assuming you can charge it up nearby before you get to your cabin in the winter, I don't see any problems. The range hit is primarily due to HVAC usage. If you're willing to not set it at 75F while it's below zero outside, you won't see as big of a hit in range. You'll also see a range hit initially after your car is parked there and the battery is "cold soaked" overnight, but you say your driving is only one or twice per month, so should be no big problem. How far do you drive while there? I'm assuming short, local trips? The car will sit unused and asleep with minimal vampire drain, even in the cold, for months -- just don't check on it with your app, which wakes it up.

Assuming you have 300-400 miles of range when you get there, it should be no problem to do 2-4 short local trips and have the car sleep for the rest of the 2 months. Would still have enough to get to nearby charging at the end of your cabin stay.

Would help with some actual numbers though. How far is the drive to/from the cabin, how close the nearest public charging, how long are your local trips, etc.