The Electric Vehicle Thread

[RobLJ]

For me it is not about favoring one over the other, it is what is the value proposition?

Well, the Bolt costs a bit less than 1/4 of what it costs to fuel the Forester for 300 miles. I think that might be considered value. Obviously, if your electricity costs a lot more than in Nevada that will change.

I've only had to bring the Bolt in to the dealership for recalls, in 25k (and for tire rotations). That's another. I did have to replace the windshield wipers, though.

 

[Montecfo]

Well, the Bolt costs a bit less than 1/4 of what it costs to fuel the Forester for 300 miles. I think that might be considered value. Obviously, if your electricity costs a lot more than in Nevada that will change.

I've only had to bring the Bolt in to the dealership for recalls, in 25k (and for tire rotations). That's another. I did have to replace the windshield wipers, though.

Cost of fuel is a part of the value proposition. It is not all.

 

[RobLJ]

Cost of fuel is a part of the value proposition. It is not all.

I"m aware of that, but you asked; I answered. For some reason I've got the feeling you aren't the target customer for EVs but we like ours fine in the 3 years we've had it. I even park it in our garage! (I'd add smiley but I don't know how!)

 

[Montecfo]

I"m aware of that, but you asked; I answered. For some reason I've got the feeling you aren't the target customer for EVs but we like ours fine in the 3 years we've had it. I even park it in our garage! (I'd add smiley but I don't know how!)

Most people are not it seems. But more info is always better. I identified several issues above.

Just type colon and right parenthesis.

 

[ken830]

Another issue that has been brushed aside is the geopolitical risk in battery production. China controls two thirds of lithium and cobalt, 60 pct of aluminum and 80 pct of polysilicon (solar panels).

They just restricted the export of two minerals needed for chip production. We just went through a supply chain disaster post pandemic. China could create new ones at any second, which is why we have a push for reshoring and rightshoring.

I am concerned that if I buy an EV I am just placing more cards on the wrong side of the table and helping make US markets more vulnerable to governments which have proven to be unfriendly at best.

I respect and am impressed with how happy most folks seem to be with their EVs.

But the above gives me pause.

It's not brushed aside... We just talked about this a couple of days ago and I addressed most of that in my comment here:

The production of EVs, even if using lithium, cobalt, and rare earth metals, is a relatively small amount and only during production during the scaling-up years before domestic recycling programs are available to create a nearly closed-loop system whereas the fueling of a gasoline vehicle from crude is a on-going lifetime consumable (I know fuel for EVs is multi-varied and can include oil). Let's not blow-up the the small amount of mined material at production disproportionately. Nothing is absolute. Nothing is 100% anything.

Tesla is going to be starting domestic lithium production (starting with refining). Even though Tesla batteries use very little cobalt, they have been selling a lot of LFP-based batteries that use 100% cobalt-free cells. They are also planning to go back to using zero rare earth metals in their permanent-motor drivetrains in future vehicles (until the Model 3, Tesla used AC induction motors exclusively, so never used rare earths before 2017).

Last year, Tesla disclosed all suppliers for their lithium, cobalt, and nickel. You can see that here:
https://electrek.co/2022/05/06/tesla-list-battery-material-suppliers-long-term-nickel-deal-vale/ Mining and refining sites include Australia, Argentina, Canada, China, DRC, New Caledonia, USA.

If you read the latest Impact Report (https://www.tesla.com/impact), you'll see that Tesla has strict policies for ensuring they source responsibly and have strict requirements for their entire supply chain. They constantly address issues of forced labor, human rights, human trafficking, and terrorism funding. Even at this year's shareholder meeting, a ridiculous "shareholder" proposal about child-labor was brought up again -- there seems to be no getting away from these "concerns," much like range anxiety.

I'm most familiar with Tesla, so I cannot speak to how much better or worse the other EV manufacturers are with their supply chain and manufacturing processes. Point is, there are ways to achieve a better, less negatively-impactful personal transportation product with an EV than a gasoline vehicle. And we are moving in that direction. A gasoline vehicle just cannot provide that future.

Unlike a gasoline vehicle which will ALWAYS need more crude oil from places including politically-complicated areas of the globe, buying an EV does not really place more cards on the wrong side of the table because that EV is already produced and will never need more lithium, cobalt, or rare earths. Many Teslas don't contain any cobalt or rare earths to begin with. And if it does contain any of those, it's very small amounts. Cobalt is the most troublesome of those and if you're so concerned, you wouldn't be able to use smart phones or most other electronic devices... Elon addressed this a few times and he's absolutely right:

Apple uses I think almost 100% cobalt in their batteries and cell phones and laptops, but Tesla uses no cobalt in the iron-phosphate packs, and almost none in the nickel-based chemistries. On on a weighted-average basis we might use 2% cobalt compared to say, Apple’s 100% cobalt. Anyway, so it’s just really not a factor."

 

[eytonxav]

Got a ride in my neighbor's BMW I4 M50 last night. It is a great car, very comfortable ride, handles well, and the power is super. I really like the dashboard display which was hi-def. My neighbor raved about one pedal driving and said it took about 1 hour to get used to. The only thing for me which I didn't like is that getting in and out of the car with a bad back and hips was difficult. Felt like I was sitting on the floor. For most people this would not be a problem, but I'm old. I would definitely need an SUV type EV when the time comes, probably in another 2-3 years, as I currently have a perfectly fine 21 Audi Q5. As of now, I am not sure what the best SUV EVs are.

 

[Midpack]

Most people are not it seems. But more info is always better. I identified several issues above.

Just type colon and right parenthesis.

We get you don’t think EVs make sense today, but why do you keep repeating yourself? Do you think none of us are aware of the potential issues and trade offs between ICE, HEV, PHEV and BEV - and haven’t done our own considerable research to make our own decisions? I’ve been following Tesla almost daily for more than 10 years, along with other EV developments and I’ve read hundreds of articles pro and con. And I can’t wait to buy my first Tesla. You’re welcome to conclude otherwise, but repeating yourself on this thread is pointless.

 

[joesxm3]

If you are going to buy a Tesla you should find out how to use a referral code from someone. It seems that if you buy using a referral code you get three free months of FSD ($600 value) and the person giving you the code gets some sort of credits.

I would offer my referral code, but I have no idea how to get one. Plus I suppose I would get dinged for trying to use the forum for profit.

I am on my second month of FSD subscription and enjoying it. So you might as well make sure to get the three free months if you are buying the car anyway.

 

[Midpack]

If you are going to buy a Tesla you should find out how to use a referral code from someone. It seems that if you buy using a referral code you get three free months of FSD ($600 value) and the person giving you the code gets some sort of credits.

I would offer my referral code, but I have no idea how to get one. Plus I suppose I would get dinged for trying to use the forum for profit.

I am on my second month of FSD subscription and enjoying it. So you might as well make sure to get the three free months if you are buying the car anyway.

I plan to use the referral code for my favorite Tesla YT channel.

 

[TriumphTR3fan]

If you are going to buy a Tesla you should find out how to use a referral code from someone. It seems that if you buy using a referral code you get three free months of FSD ($600 value) and the person giving you the code gets some sort of credits.



I would offer my referral code, but I have no idea how to get one. Plus I suppose I would get dinged for trying to use the forum for profit.



I am on my second month of FSD subscription and enjoying it. So you might as well make sure to get the three free months if you are buying the car anyway.

You already have a referral link. Go to Tesla.com sign in to your account at the top of the main page, click on Refer and Earn. You should then see your referral link. You can copy it & send to a friend.

 

[ken830]

You can also send out your referral code from the Tesla app. Check the lootbox in the app.

 

[audreyh1]

Got a ride in my neighbor's BMW I4 M50 last night. It is a great car, very comfortable ride, handles well, and the power is super. I really like the dashboard display which was hi-def. My neighbor raved about one pedal driving and said it took about 1 hour to get used to. The only thing for me which I didn't like is that getting in and out of the car with a bad back and hips was difficult. Felt like I was sitting on the floor. For most people this would not be a problem, but I'm old. I would definitely need an SUV type EV when the time comes, probably in another 2-3 years, as I currently have a perfectly fine 21 Audi Q5. As of now, I am not sure what the best SUV EVs are.

I own a Model X and have rented a Model Y. These are both SUVs (or maybe the Y is considered a crossover but was same difference to me). We find these both to be quite comfortable. I don’t like sedans especially extra low to the ground ones and for this reason won’t rent a Model 3.

Can’t speak to other car brands.

 

[Montecfo]

We get you don’t think EVs make sense today, but why do you keep repeating yourself? Do you think none of us are aware of the potential issues and trade offs between ICE, HEV, PHEV and BEV - and haven’t done our own considerable research to make our own decisions? I’ve been following Tesla almost daily for more than 10 years, along with other EV developments and I’ve read hundreds of articles pro and con. And I can’t wait to buy my first Tesla. You’re welcome to conclude otherwise, but repeating yourself on this thread is pointless.

It is just a question. In this 6000 post thread there is post after post after post extolling the virtues of EVs and some insisting there are no cons and no downsides.

So, pointing some out from a novice viewpoint and finding out how EV owners, enthusiasts and experts deal with them seems fair game. And if there are no real answers other than the casual "those will get fixed in the future" that is also fine. Perspective gained.

And I fully trust people have done their research of course. That is why the ask seems reasonable.

 

[joesxm3]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned that EV with so much electronics probably won't do very well in a EMP attack or solar flare. Not to mention being close to ground zero for a nuclear strike. 1950 jeep would be much better in these edge case scenarios.

 

[ls99]

^^^ in the 70s era in the DEW line comms stations were signs about what to do in nuke attack (which causes huge EMP).
Bend over deeply and kiss your sweet as* goodbye. Then what happens to one's car becomes moot.

 

[Koolau]

It is just a question. In this 6000 post thread there is post after post after post extolling the virtues of EVs and some insisting there are no cons and no downsides.

So, pointing some out from a novice viewpoint and finding out how EV owners, enthusiasts and experts deal with them seems fair game. And if there are no real answers other than the casual "those will get fixed in the future" that is also fine. Perspective gained.

And I fully trust people have done their research of course. That is why the ask seems reasonable.

I'm not anti EV at all. I'd love to have a (perhaps) used Leaf. It would be perfect for Oahu. BUT, I don't have any easy place to charge it yet. Don't tell me "there are charging stations everywhere." I know better.

Not to put words in Montecfos' mouth: I think he (and I) want personal experience answers about the "big" EV questions. It doesn't reassure me to hear that "that's not a problem." I want to know how EV owners have found for themselves "that's not a problem." And, yes, I know. Many folks have given examples of how "that's not a problem" - and that is helpful to me.

My biggest remaining issue, for instance, is cross-country (long distance) traveling. I have (almost) 1st hand evidence from my son that it CAN be problematic. He took 3 days instead of 2 in an ICE for a long trip. Heh, heh, I've never mentioned that he was traveling alone with his daughter - my GD - who was not quite 3 at the time. Have folks found a way around that?

Before anyone asks me why I worry about a long distance EV since I live on Oahu, keep in mind I keep a car on the mainland. I live there 4 months/year. I have kid/GKs 1500 miles away on the mainland.

I'm not telling anyone not to buy an EV. I want them to tell me how I can join the EV club and make it w*rk. I think I'd love to have an EV. I love the technology. My "fantasy" would be to have an "on/off grid" solar set up that would run my house, charge my car and THEN sell the remainder to the public utility. I happen to think decentralized solar is the way to go rather than centralized - but I digress.

Returning you now...

 

[folivier]

Koolau you might find answers to your questions in the facebook group "Tesla Model Y". I joined it for a while and after reading for a couple weeks asked questions about my specific needs. The general consensus was for me an EV was not what I needed. For you if you keep a car on the mainland how will you keep it charged if unattended for months? That was my biggest problem if I buy an EV and use it to drive to our mountain cabin. It would have to be parked in a lot without charging for a month or two.
I found the guys in that group pretty honest about problems and issues with their EV's. And there are problems and issues. Read about the "phantom braking" issues.

 

[Koolau]

Koolau you might find answers to your questions in the facebook group "Tesla Model Y". I joined it for a while and after reading for a couple weeks asked questions about my specific needs. The general consensus was for me an EV was not what I needed. For you if you keep a car on the mainland how will you keep it charged if unattended for months? That was my biggest problem if I buy an EV and use it to drive to our mountain cabin. It would have to be parked in a lot without charging for a month or two.
I found the guys in that group pretty honest about problems and issues with their EV's. And there are problems and issues. Read about the "phantom braking" issues.

Thanks for the suggestion. At this point I don't do any social media except this forum. I fear another "addiction" I guess.

I think I could have someone keep my EV charged up on the mainland as I have family/friends there. So far, I have always found someone to start up my ICE car on the mainland - though the first couple of years, my ICE sat unattended for 8 or 9 months. I'd get in, pray, stomp the pedal twice, turn the key and start up the "diesel" (well, it sounded like one.) It would take a couple of days of driving before the tappets settled down. I drove that car for 5 years that way (150K) and then got rid of it because the door handle/lock fell inside the door - meaning either a NASCAR entry or right seat entry, across the gear shift (don't make a mistake.)

I'm thinking an EV might be easier. OH, and my niece bought a plug-in hybrid for her business, so it might just w*rk with an EV. I don't know.

How often do you have to charge when you store through a midwest winter? Thanks.

 

[explanade]

Model Y doesn't seem to ride much higher than Model 3 or other passenger cars, if at all.


As far as EMP, modern ICE cars have electronics as well. THat is why the chip shortage hurt new car production of all types.

Question is do typical models use the chips just for entertainment and other ancillary functions or would a fried chip cause problems for ignition and fuel-injection systems.

Maybe anti-lock breaks too.

Also now cars have emergency braking systems, which are probably controlled by processors running some firmware with the detection systems and so on.

Those auto braking systems may be offline but maybe they also take the regular braking system down with them.

Cars may or may not be completely fly by wire but more and more, you have electronic or digital systems rather than old mechanical and hydraulic controls.

 

[ken830]

To give you an idea of what it's like to keep the car unused without being plugged in:

Even though I have a 2 car garage, my wife has so much stuff that we can only fit one car (hers) and still have room to load/unload the kids. So my car lives permanently at the curb. Since the pandemic, I've been mostly working from home and I park the car unused for months at a time. From 80 or 90%, it'll sit in sleep mode (except for the once or twice it wakes up for a firmware update each month) for about 3-4 months before it gets down to below 40% and I would move it to the driveway to charge for a few hours. I could probably get it to go a month longer and recharge at 30% without too much harm to the battery. This is a 2018 Model 3 Performance.

 

[Koolau]

To give you an idea of what it's like to keep the car unused without being plugged in:

Even though I have a 2 car garage, my wife has so much stuff that we can only fit one car (hers) and still have room to load/unload the kids. So my car lives permanently at the curb. Since the pandemic, I've been mostly working from home and I park the car unused for months at a time. From 80 or 90%, it'll sit in sleep mode (except for the once or twice it wakes up for a firmware update each month) for about 3-4 months before it gets down to below 40% and I would move it to the driveway to charge for a few hours. I could probably get it to go a month longer and recharge at 30% without too much harm to the battery. This is a 2018 Model 3 Performance.

Sounds to me that you have 3 options. Get rid of stuff in garage. Get rid of 2nd car. Get rid of DW.

But seriously, thank you. This is good info to have. The thing I like about an EV in my situation is that you don't need to "start it up" occasionally to keep the oil on the piston/crank, etc.

I do wonder if Tesla (or anyone else) has come up with a "trickle charge" where you plug it in. You walk away, and the charger keeps it at, say 50% or some such. THAT would solve problems for me, though I think I can trust my family to do such a charging routine as you do.

Thanks again.

 

[ken830]

Sounds to me that you have 3 options. Get rid of stuff in garage. Get rid of 2nd car. Get rid of DW.

But seriously, thank you. This is good info to have. The thing I like about an EV in my situation is that you don't need to "start it up" occasionally to keep the oil on the piston/crank, etc.

I do wonder if Tesla (or anyone else) has come up with a "trickle charge" where you plug it in. You walk away, and the charger keeps it at, say 50% or some such. THAT would solve problems for me, though I think I can trust my family to do such a charging routine as you do.

Thanks again.

I can't remember exactly, but I think this feature (charge level setting) was added some time in 2013. This allows you to select any charge level (in 1% SoC increments) between 50% and 100%. Before that, you could only choose between normal everyday (90%) and full charge (100%). Now you can just leave it plugged in and it will basically wake up and charge to the level you select (50% is good for longer term storage) anytime it drops a few percent according to your charging schedule.

I wish my wife would get rid of some stuff, but obviously I can't control her. I'm lucky enough that we are able to keep a second car even though I don't need it often enough to justify the cost. But it was a few years of uncertainty with the pandemic and new job and work from home that really had me unsure of what to do. I used to drive 25k miles per year and it has since dropped to just a few hundred miles.

 

[Midpack]

It is just a question. In this 6000 post thread there is post after post after post extolling the virtues of EVs and some insisting there are no cons and no downsides.

So, pointing some out from a novice viewpoint and finding out how EV owners, enthusiasts and experts deal with them seems fair game. And if there are no real answers other than the casual "those will get fixed in the future" that is also fine. Perspective gained.

And I fully trust people have done their research of course. That is why the ask seems reasonable.

Show me any EV fan who insists there are no cons or downsides? And many of those 6000 posts have already explained what the cons are and how they’re mitigated for some but not all owners, you seem to dismiss them.

There are pros and cons for EVs, PHEVs, BEVs, HEVs, and ICE. If you can charge at home, and you don’t take frequent long trips***, and you’re a 2 car family like millions of people, an EV and an ICE/HEV is ideal. Even a single car household could be an EV if the first two conditions are true. No one has said an EV is ideal for all passenger car use cases.

*** There is a world of difference between the Tesla supercharger network reliability/availability and all other charge providers. The millions of Tesla owners on longer trips don’t have to deal with Electrify America and the other unreliable charge stations. Tesla owners do long trips relying on chargers every day. While it does add time it’s manageable. My trip home takes 13 hours by ICE and 14 by Tesla. ICE is 12 hours driving plus 1 hour gas/food/breaks. Tesla is 12 hours driving plus 2 hours charging enroute during which gas/food/breaks happen.

 

[Andre1969]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned that EV with so much electronics probably won't do very well in a EMP attack or solar flare. Not to mention being close to ground zero for a nuclear strike. 1950 jeep would be much better in these edge case scenarios.

It's been brought up. And from what I've read, some modern cars might do better than you'd expect, while some older ones won't do as well as you think.

I believe a few major factors with how well a car withstands an EMP are how well-protected the electric/electronic components are, but also distances, like how far the wiring/circuits extend.

Of course, the more complex the electronics are on a car, the greater the potential for the car to become disabled. And the harder it would be to fix it.

 

[joesxm3]

Maybe I worry too much, but I feel that we have to take my step dads gas Nissan Centre out for a spin every 2-3 weeks now that he does not drive. Circulate the oil, charge up the 12 volt battery, make sure the brake calipers don't freeze up or the tires go square.

I would worry about the tires and the brake calipers even with my Tesla. I saw one video saying that due to lack of use caused by regen braking Tesla calipers should be lubricated every year or so, especially in harsh conditions.