The Electric Vehicle Thread

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The solution is to tax people on a per mile driven basis. But, to be accurate that would require tracking our driving. That is fraught with risks to privacy.



How to best administer a mileage based road use tax really deserves a thread of its own since that affects far more than pure EVs.

The best system I've seen is ancillary to our yearly car inspection. The mileage is recored and reported to the state every year.

States which do not have state inspections could require each person to have the mileage checked at an authorized check point once/year. That's the least intrusive method I can think of. Knowing you drove 1,000 miles or 50,000 miles says relatively little about WHERE you have traveled and WHEN. It's still slightly intrusive, but far less so than requiring, for instance, in-car tracking or telemetry.

My guess. States (i.e., gummints) WANT all the data they can get on everyone. I think we should allow as little data as possible being collected by ANYONE. Call me paranoid, but then read my tag line (again.) IF you don't believe my tag line, then put a tracker in your car and give it to anyone who wants it. There will be a line of businesses and gummint entities waiting for your data - just in case you are worried that no one cares about you - and your driving habits and destinations.:facepalm:
 
Guess you missed this:

Texas drivers will no longer need annual car [safety] inspections beginning in 2025

Of course there is a catch. You will still need annual emissions testing if you live in one of these 17 counties: Brazoria, Collin, Dallas, Denton, Ellis, El Paso, Fort Bend, Galveston, Harris, Johnson, Kaufman, Montgomery, Parker, Rockwall, Tarrant, Travis or Williamson county. Happy to say I live in one of the other 237 TX counties.

Emissions testing for EVs?
 
No, only for gasoline powered cars. Motorcycles and diesel engines also get a pass.

They ought to test mopeds. Of course, all the gunk those things spew would clog up their testing units. What a disgrace.
 
I haven't looked into hard data, but my gut feel is that electrification of mopeds/scooters makes a lot of sense. My friends tell me that places in Asia, like Taiwan, have pretty much completely converted and electric scooters and battery swapping is ubiquitous.
 
I haven't looked into hard data, but my gut feel is that electrification of mopeds/scooters makes a lot of sense. My friends tell me that places in Asia, like Taiwan, have pretty much completely converted and electric scooters and battery swapping is ubiquitous.

Well poorer nations in SE Asia have all these scooters which pollute a lot.

Maybe they adapt e-bikes, many of which come with throttles so you don't even have to pedal.

Won't be as fast as those gas engine scooters but will be lot quieter and won't have these dirty emissions.

However in NYC, a lot of food delivery drivers have gotten cheap e-bikes, with uncertified/untested batteries, which have blown up or caused fires. Fatalities are growing.
 
I haven't looked into hard data, but my gut feel is that electrification of mopeds/scooters makes a lot of sense. My friends tell me that places in Asia, like Taiwan, have pretty much completely converted and electric scooters and battery swapping is ubiquitous.

I don't know about other municipalities but our rate of deaths from mopeds/scooters/bikes (electric or ICE) has skyrocketed. I'd love to see all such vehicles electrified, but I feel sorry for folks who can only afford such basic transportation. BUT, there again, on our Island, THE BUS can actually mean you can live without a vehicle. YMMV
 
Here in England our daughter today took her driving test in her VW id.3 EV. She had let her California license expire end of February so this past few months has depended on one of us being in the passenger seat when she needed to drive anywhere.

Her driving examiner was fascinated by the car as he had never been in an EV before let alone conduct a driving exam in one. Driving exams here are very rigorous and the pass rate at this Test Center has a typical pass rate of 51% so our daughter, and me, have been totally stressed out.

Appropriately, today being July 4th, she passed so has her independence back :dance:
 
Emissions testing for EVs?

As incredibly stupid as it is, in PA you do need an annual emissions inspection sticker on EVs. They don't do any testing, but they do charge for the sticker. I know someone who got a ticket for not having one.
 
As incredibly stupid as it is, in PA you do need an annual emissions inspection sticker on EVs. They don't do any testing, but they do charge for the sticker. I know someone who got a ticket for not having one.
Not since 2019?
As of July 1, 2019, electric cars are exempt from Pennsylvania’s vehicle emissions testing program. Previously, electric cars were required to undergo emissions testing every two years, just like gasoline-powered vehicles. However, the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection (DEP) has decided to exempt electric cars from emissions testing due to their zero emissions. This is great news for electric car owners in Allegheny County, as they will no longer have to go through the hassle and expense of getting their car tested. However, it is important to note that electric cars are still subject to annual safety inspections.

https://www.osvehicle.com/pennsylvania-electric-cars-exempt-from-emissions-testing/
 
Guess you missed this:

Texas drivers will no longer need annual car [safety] inspections beginning in 2025

Of course there is a catch. You will still need annual emissions testing if you live in one of these 17 counties: Brazoria, Collin, Dallas, Denton, Ellis, El Paso, Fort Bend, Galveston, Harris, Johnson, Kaufman, Montgomery, Parker, Rockwall, Tarrant, Travis or Williamson county. Happy to say I live in one of the other 237 TX counties.
Totally missed that. I'm not sure how wise that is. Nice to know there will many more folks running around in vehicles with bad brakes, bald tires, worn out windshield wipers and defective lighting. :rolleyes:
 
As incredibly stupid as it is, in PA you do need an annual emissions inspection sticker on EVs. They don't do any testing, but they do charge for the sticker. I know someone who got a ticket for not having one.


Do they require that the EV gets its electrical power from an approved green source such as solar, wind or hydro? Will it pass the emissions test if the power at the home charger comes mostly from gas or (gasp!) a coal plant? Can you buy a small home cold fusion reactor to charge the EV? Inquiring minds want to know. :D
 
The auto manufacturers know where you are, how fast you’re driving, your SSN, etc.
Search ‘car manufactures tracking you’. Many articles about all the data they collect and sell.

Broadly, all manufacturers are likely to collect personal information that can be classed as an identifier. These include your name, address, driving license number, phone number, email, and other information.

Good luck with privacy.
 
Emission testing varies by county in PA. The testing requirement is waived for EVs but a person still has to pay for the "exempt" sticker same as ICE car drivers that drive less than 5,000 miles since the last inspection or one year. They guy I referred to in my previous comment was stopped and ticketed in March 2023 in PA for not having the sticker.
While emissions testing varies by county, an EV needs a windshield (safety) sticker as I noted above, not an emissions sticker. Your friend must have had neither.

pa-2023-green-orange-both.jpg
 
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As incredibly stupid as it is, in PA you do need an annual emissions inspection sticker on EVs. They don't do any testing, but they do charge for the sticker. I know someone who got a ticket for not having one.

Well of course they charge for EVs.:facepalm::LOL:
 
Do they require that the EV gets its electrical power from an approved green source such as solar, wind or hydro? Will it pass the emissions test if the power at the home charger comes mostly from gas or (gasp!) a coal plant? Can you buy a small home cold fusion reactor to charge the EV? Inquiring minds want to know. :D


Most of the Bolt and RAV PHEV are charged by my solar panels (not all; it didn't make sense to put panels on the North facing roof). Do I get a bonus or just your opprobrium? I don't understand the vitriol on EVs. I know they are not Jesus healing the lepers and raising Lazarus from the grave, but the vitriol is a bit difficult to understand.

They will take over the new car market, slowly, then all at once in about 15 years, I suspect. Lack of materials or other issues could slow this down, but I suspect that will be addressed in the next 5-7 years. Charging is a challenge for those without homes in the meantime, unlike myself, but it sounds like the INfrastructure Bill will address that pretty rapidly. And as a note, coal is dead; plants will remain but wind and solar are much cheaper and, of course, cleaner. Natural gas has been and will supplant coal, which it has already done in most states. The market has spoken; it has already happened and will continue. I suspect no new coal plant will be built, at least not one that isn't already under construction here in the US. (Nevada Energy, and Nevada is not a woo-woo state, is replacing the last coal plant with 5 solar projects, from 2022-2024. Obviously solar, particulary around Vegas and up to the central part of the state, is plentiful and cheap. Wind blows too hard, unfortunately.)
 
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The auto manufacturers know where you are, how fast you’re driving, your SSN, etc.
Search ‘car manufactures tracking you’. Many articles about all the data they collect and sell.

Broadly, all manufacturers are likely to collect personal information that can be classed as an identifier. These include your name, address, driving license number, phone number, email, and other information.

Good luck with privacy.

I guess if you want to avoid that, you have to keep buying older and older used cars as time goes on. I don't think my 2000 collects much info that isn't replaced after a few minutes. At least, it has no telemetry.
 
Most of the Bolt and RAV PHEV are charged by my solar panels (not all; it didn't make sense to put panels on the North facing roof). Do I get a bonus or just your opprobrium? I don't understand the vitriol on EVs. I know they are not Jesus healing the lepers and raising Lazarus from the grave, but the vitriol is a bit difficult to understand.

They will take over the new car market, slowly, then all at once in about 15 years, I suspect. Lack of materials or other issues could slow this down, but I suspect that will be addressed in the next 5-7 years. Charging is a challenge for those without homes in the meantime, unlike myself, but it sounds like the INfrastructure Bill will address that pretty rapidly. And as a note, coal is dead; plants will remain but wind and solar are much cheaper and, of course, cleaner. Natural gas has been and will supplant coal, which it has already done in most states. The market has spoken; it has already happened and will continue. I suspect no new coal plant will be built, at least not one that isn't already under construction here in the US. (Nevada Energy, and Nevada is not a woo-woo state, is replacing the last coal plant with 5 solar projects, from 2022-2024. Obviously solar, particulary around Vegas and up to the central part of the state, is plentiful and cheap. Wind blows too hard, unfortunately.)
Solar is intermittent power. It is not the same type of power as coal gas or fuel oil, which generate persistent power.

We are spending trillions to subsidize electric while our grid lacks capacity and resilience. This is poorly conceived. Accordingly we have major brownout risk right now in most of the west.

The cars are fine for a sliver of the market. But the headlong rush while ignoring warnings is dangerous.
 
Solar is intermittent power. It is not the same type of power as coal gas or fuel oil, which generate persistent power.

We are spending trillions to subsidize electric while our grid lacks capacity and resilience. This is poorly conceived. Accordingly we have major brownout risk right now in most of the west.

The cars are fine for a sliver of the market. But the headlong rush while ignoring warnings is dangerous.


I agree the grid badly needs to be modernized; much of it is 30-50 years old. Why my Okie rural grandfather told me about the "concerns" people had about electrification in the 30's, when the US electrified the whole country. This is not an insolvable problem, folks, and in fact it is not particularly the fault of EVs or renewables. We neglected the electrical infrastructure for 40 years. It's amazing to me that EVs are now the bugaboo. Everything is electric now. Everything is going to be electric.

And---I know this is a huge surprise to you-- the grid will need to be modernized. Period. Whoopee! Yes, we might actually have to do something that we did 90 years ago. But I no longer think the US is up to it, because, frankly, the US doesn't believe in modernizing or in infrastructure.
Now, I lived in Houston, watched the I-10 West of Houston go from 4 lanes each way to 12 lanes each way, and that was not enough. How much did we spend on "infrastructure" to do that? Please tell me. But to keep Texas from going dark, due to population gains, climate chains, and electricification, we can't do that anymore?
If we can't modernize the grid, we are a failed state. Period. It's not that we can't; we just don't want to. I understand that people don't want to modernize the grid, just like my grandfather told me the old Okies didn't want to get electricity. But I don't agree. Solar and wind are cheaper than the alternatives; what is lacking now are a) local tie-ins and b) modern inter-grid connections. Period. You can complain, moan, and say it can't be done, but it will get done over the next 20 years. Sheer economics of energy will drive it. Upgrading the transmission is actually the big problem. I think the Feds should fund the interconnects between the grids, but thats just me. The utilities don't want that, obviously, because they make money off the transmission and if they don't fund it, well, who needs them in the size that they play?



But transmission is the devil in the playhouse, and I'm no God on that question. The US and the rest of the 1st world will electrify and electrify rapidly, as we have been doing. You can shake your finger and plug it in the dike but pure economics of solar and wind will drive this and have been driving it for the last 15 years. My wife worked for Unocal (in Cali), then for Tenneco and for Dynegy, then finally worked for a big wind company after Dynegy went bankrupt, pulled down by Enron. I've been interested in this for 20 years now. Even Texas has gone wind and solar, simply because.... they are cheap. My brother-in-law worked for ERCOT as an econometrician and he largely agrees with me, for what it's worth. So I'm not just blowing smoke.


By the way, the new rate profile Nevada Energy offered me is dirt cheap if I charge the Bolt after 11 pm, when demand is low (It is about 1/6th of what peak demand period would be. Curious, isn't it?) Since I have solar and no battery, I've ignored it. But EVs are not going to "bring the grid down" anytime soon. They want me to charge in the dead of night. 2way EVs that can supply energy to the grid would in fact be a huge solution, but we won't be there for a long time, since that would require a smart grid. But the 66 kilowatt hour battery in the Bolt could run my house for 3-5 days. EVs are not "the problem." I know Exxon wants you to believe this and want you to shake in fear. But why would you live in fear? EVs are about as dangerous as a booger.
 
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Most of the Bolt and RAV PHEV are charged by my solar panels (not all; it didn't make sense to put panels on the North facing roof). Do I get a bonus...

No. No 'bonus'.

I've covered this several times in the past. Your EV is not "charged by your solar panels". The solar panels supply power to the grid, your EV takes power from the grid. That's all there is to it. The solar panel production means a fossil fuel plant somewhere on the grid throttles down a bit, and charging your EV causes a fossil fuel plant somewhere on the grid to throttle up. Your solar panels save some fossil fuel, your EV uses some - they are separate events.

If that needs to be made clearer, for simplicity take some neighbors whose panels produce an average of 1 unit of electrical energy a month, and their EV consumes an average of 1 unit of electrical energy a month.

One neighbor installs solar panels. the grid uses 1 unit less fossil fuel production that month. A few months later, he buys an EV. The grid now needs to produce that 1 unit previously saved. The EV caused the grid to ramp up. Period.

The other neighbor buys an EV first. The grid now needs to produce that 1 unit in excess of what it did before. Then the solar panels go in, and the grid throttles back 1 unit/month.

So you see, the solar panels save, the EV takes. They are separate, and yes, your EV is running mostly on fossil fuel. You can claim bonus points for your solar panels, but the EV is what it is, a car that runs mainly on fossil fuel, whether you have solar panels or not.


or just your opprobrium? I don't understand the vitriol on EVs.

Did you get the "Hot Button" notice for this thread? I saw no 'vitriol' or 'harsh criticism or censure.' in the post you replied to. It simply pointed out that it takes energy to charge an EV, and little of it is from green sources. That sort of response just heats things up.

-ERD50
 
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Seems it is time for a reminder, since some of y'all are blowing right past the warning message when posting in this thread:

<<<Mod Note:>>>

We try to be reasonably hands-off with this thread, as the debate is always spirited and a bit more inherently argumentative than other topics. Community rules still apply (read them, again).

However, some recent posts have pushed the boundaries. One can disagree without being disagreeable. We're among friends, so dial back the tone a bit maybe? Drop some of the attitudes...

Might actually encourage others to participate. As of now there are surely many newer members who open this thread and and wish they hadn't.
 
Most of the Bolt and RAV PHEV are charged by my solar panels (not all; it didn't make sense to put panels on the North facing roof). Do I get a bonus or just your opprobrium? I don't understand the vitriol on EVs. I know they are not Jesus healing the lepers and raising Lazarus from the grave, but the vitriol is a bit difficult to understand.


No vitriol. Just having some fun with the idea that a full EV would be emissions tested.
 
I am starting to warm to the idea of owning an EV based on talking to my neighbors and what has been written here in favor. That said, there are both pros/cons as with anything, but I would say that part of the harsh treatment that EVs get is due to gov't strongly pushing them in opposition to what a free market would do.
 
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